Originally Posted By Kimber <<I never claimed that he wasn't "black enough" only that he's never lived within the social confines of his "blackness".>> OH! So sorry, Kim! The correct answer is, "If your skin is black in the US, you DO live within the 'confines of blackness.'" You imply that because he has become successful and is now monied, he must never have dealt with racism and must not be dealing with it now. But thanks for playing!" Now that's base - simple minded and bigoted. You think that successful "black Americans" live within the same social confines as less fortunate "Black Americans"? Obama has never been "black" he's been raised to see himself as Bi-racial, his mother and grandparents raised him to see himself as "partly white", he doesn't see himself as "black" - have you read the Mendacity of Hype - look at the man. That America is on the verge of electing him then I'm as afraid for my country as I've ever been. I have no problem with his color, I have problems with his judgement, experience and his emotional gullibility. He's not tough enough, he has too much "hope" and I find myself seriously considering voting for a Republican - something I've never done because I see Obama as dangerous for my country. Kim
Originally Posted By Kimber "Kimber, I'm not really trying to single you out, but your rascist bias is mindboggling that coherent people can think like that. And the best part is you don't even see it." Don't presume what I can see - your bias is showing. I don't have the time to explain your own mis-conceptions about my position. As I've said, I have no problem with Obama's color, I've seen too much to let a small thing get in the way. It's the inside of the man that I don't trust, his outsides and a non-issue. If I thought that he were the right "man" for the job I'd be singing his praises and signing up for that cult of personality he's riding. He will fall and America will be left with what's left. McCain will eat him alive. Kim
Originally Posted By Kimber "<He plays the race card more adeptly that any politician in his country. Just watch him run towards Oprah - a non-frightenng to white folks black woman - and from Farrakhan's endorsement- a very frightening to white folks black man. It's the Obama campaign that's racist. > That's not racist. Embracing Oprah is embracing a hugely popular figure - ANYONE would be happy with Oprah's endorsement. And running from Farrakhan is running from a man who is arguably himself racist. So calling that dichotomy racist is...well...weird." Not weird, just telling. A point of interest. A facination. That three people who are the same could be so different - and be seen so differently by us. Add Teddy Kennedy to the mix and your head wil explode. Makes me think. Obama played the race card first and he does with each and every stump speech. As Hillary plays the gender card with each and every speech. They're both fighting over us - the great American un-known. Kim
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 mele, I found it disheartening in 1995 that people's stated opinions about OJ's guilt were almost completely drawn along racial lines. Back in that day, black people didn't criticize other black people in front of white people. I believe that a significant change in that social norm has occured in the past 12 years. Since then, Bill Cosby has publicly criticized black people. Oprah has disagreed with black individuals. Other black individuals and groups have come out against the violent and misogynistic messages of popular black music. Etc. Personally, I most clearly get to see the change reflected in the way that Detroiters have reacted to official accusations of impropriety on the part of their elected leaders. Twelve years ago, black citizens inevitably responded with indignation. Despite strong evidence of crookedness, the citizens would argue loudly that the accused was being railroaded for being black. Now -- this year -- when the mayor is on the verge of losing his job for having an affair, spending city money on his mistress, firing two cops who discovered that, and then secretly giving them $9 million dollars to keep it quiet, black Detroiters are openly vocally critical of him. Sounds like a no-brainer, doesn't it? But I think it reflects a huge cultural change that has occured since the OJ trial.
Originally Posted By Mr X **McCain will eat him alive.** He's certainly creepy enough to be a cannibal, that's for sure! Naw, I'm just kidding. He is creepy though. It astounds me that people are getting behind any Republican at all after what they've done to America...a lot of those idiots probably voted for Bush `04 as well!
Originally Posted By friendofdd >>>It astounds me that people are getting behind any Republican at all after what they've done to America...a lot of those idiots probably voted for Bush `04 as well!<<< Perhaps that is one of the reasons we have a two party system, Mr X. You will know from the US elections in your lifetime that about 2/3 of the voters stay loyal to their respective party pretty much regardless of circumstances. The remaining third may move back and forth occasionally, but it seems that just 10-12% really decide who will win. If that were not so, the winner would have received a greater majority, or in some cases, such as Clinton, a majority instead of the greater minority.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<You think that successful "black Americans" live within the same social confines as less fortunate "Black Americans"?>> Absolutely not. And I never said that I did. But I DO think: 1) Most of them weren't "born" successful. (Barak Obama would be in this group.) It is a testament to them that they BECAME successful. 2) Even "successful" black people in this country face racism. It's not as though white people's stupidity and suspicion and stereotyping are automatically suspended once you reach the 100K mark. <<Obama has never been "black" he's been raised to see himself as Bi-racial, his mother and grandparents raised him to see himself as "partly white"...>> You're suggesting here that discrimination only occurs to minority members who view themselves as minority members. Interesting point of view. Novel. And ridiculous. It doesn't matter whether a bi-racial person views himself as being white, black, or what. The discrimination comes from the way that OTHER people see him. In our lifetime, in the US, white people discriminate against black people. Even if the people is only half black. <<I have no problem with his color>> Then you're not expressing yourself clearly here.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< If that were not so, the winner would have received a greater majority, or in some cases, such as Clinton, a majority instead of the greater minority. >>> It's interesting that you would remember this factoid about Clinton, yet forget that in 2000, not only did Bush receive less than a majority of the vote, he didn't even get the greater minority. It was only in the electoral college that he pulled out ahead (I don't mean to criticize the electoral college, but just want to point out that the history you point out about Clinton applies even more so to Bush).
Originally Posted By Mr X **It was only in the electoral college that he pulled out ahead** And even at that, it was suspect. Thank God we have an impartial Supreme Court to take care of such matters!
Originally Posted By mele Kim, your hatred/fear of Obama is coming through in all of your posts yet I haven't heard you say exactly why you think he's so dangerous (other than your opinion that he's played the race card). What exactly has you so terrified about him? Other than not thinking of himself as black (how dare he?!) what has you so up in arms?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<<He plays the race card more adeptly that any politician in his country. Just watch him run towards Oprah - a non-frightenng to white folks black woman - and from Farrakhan's endorsement- a very frightening to white folks black man. It's the Obama campaign that's racist. >>> <<That's not racist. Embracing Oprah is embracing a hugely popular figure - ANYONE would be happy with Oprah's endorsement. And running from Farrakhan is running from a man who is arguably himself racist. So calling that dichotomy racist is...well...weird.>> <Not weird, just telling. A point of interest. A facination. That three people who are the same could be so different - and be seen so differently by us.> Oprah, Obama, and Farrakhan are indeed three different people. How in the world are they the "same," apart from their color? (And why should they be more similar than, say, George Bush, Ellen DeGeneres, and Jerry Falwell, to take three people in equivalent positions?) Since they're different people, it's quite right that they should be seen differently by the public. That this seems "telling" to you is, well, perhaps telling. <Add Teddy Kennedy to the mix and your head wil explode.> Your posts are already coming close to doing so.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<have you read the Mendacity of Hype>> Have YOU read it? Or are you just going on what you've heard other people say? Because the book you claim to have read sure doesn't seem like the book I read. Pop Quiz: What was the final topic addressed in the book?
Originally Posted By Kimber "Kim, your hatred/fear of Obama is coming through in all of your posts yet I haven't heard you say exactly why you think he's so dangerous (other than your opinion that he's played the race card). What exactly has you so terrified about him? Other than not thinking of himself as black (how dare he?!) what has you so up in arms?" mele - He's dangerous because all he offers is "hope" and any rational person can see that the "hope" is wrapped in hype and NOTHING more. Hope is a very dangerous thing in a very dangerous world. Hope is fragile. Hope is vague. Hope will be dashed. I've seen what happens to people when their heroes fail. Obama will fail and then what? The Republicans will flay him live and on CNN. Anyone see the introduction to McCain from yesterday? There are unknowns that will be used to destroy Obama and no one will be surprised. Ive been very fortunate this campaign cycle - I was able to attend the democratic debate in LA and I also attended a Hillary event it Cal State LA and a Bill Clinton event at Santa Ana college - and an Obama event in LA - east LA. I've been a political animal for a very long time casting my first vote more than 30 years ago. I see the media spin Obama to the top and I know that it will be the same media that tears him down. I wandeed around at each event I attended and asked questions - ask a Hillary supporter "Why?" and you'll get a littany of her accomplishemnts and a good deal of her talking points - she's the thinking person's candidate. I also asked Obama supporters "Why?" and they said stupidly immature thngs like "he gives me hope" and "he can make change" - hope is fragile and change is something that Washington resists at all costs. Obama is not prepared to be President - simply - it's beyond his experience and his ability. He can promise the world and those who want him to be real want it so badly that they've chosen to ignore their rational minds and taken a blind leap of faith in projecting what they need him to be onto him. He's a blank slate and reflects his audience. He plays against the establishment but it's the establishemnt that will crush him. Power exists to enable power and McCain knows that - Hillary knows that - Obama believes that he can change that. Not a chance. And four years from now we'll stll be at war - somewhere - we'll be less safe as a nation - we'll be more divided and there will be some saying "I told you so". Washington exists for those who can wield power and not those who can spin change. He will be crushed. He will be exposed. He will be destroyed and the Republicans will win - again. Think Carter. My fear isn't of Obama it's of the blind mindset that has him poised to be President. His color has more to do withhim than his experience. Being black isn't an accomplishemnt. Spin works. Hype works. If you want to read what I really think go on over to the politico or MSNBC blogs - where adults play - and take a look at the discussion raging there. LP WE is a sandbox by comparison. Gotta go to work now. Kim
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Wow. Cynical, simplistic (in the guise of being non-simplistic), arrogant, AND pretentious. The quad-fecta.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>where adults play<< Nice. >>He will be crushed. He will be exposed. He will be destroyed<< LOL! We've been hearing this prediction for quite some time now, and it just doesn't seem to be happening.
Originally Posted By friendofdd re post 168. My apologies Superdry. I was not trying to put down Pres. Clinton, but just noting that some elections have not had a winner by majority. You are right about Pres Bush. Guess I was thinking of his last win. But my point is not about the individuals elected, just that a rather small percentage of the electorate decides who will win.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Anyone see the introduction to McCain from yesterday?<< Yes, from a talk radio guy. What's new? Most of them are off the beam in what they say. That's their schtick. What would have been different if he'd been speaking about Hillary Clinton? It would have been just as ugly, if not more so. The hatred of the Clintons by the right knows no depths. I think some of the hysteria on the right is because they know that Obama would be a tougher fight. They have all kinds of material on the Clintons ready to go, the scripts have been written. But with Obama, not a lot of that will stick.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << I think some of the hysteria on the right is because they know that Obama would be a tougher fight. They have all kinds of material on the Clintons ready to go, the scripts have been written. But with Obama, not a lot of that will stick. >> Honestly, I sense that the "right" feels like Obama is the easier candidate to beat. That's why they have been sending out newsletters instructing conservative GOP members to register and Democrats and vote for him in primary elections. One area where Clinton would have been a formidable opponent to the GOP is in the support of big business and corporate donors. These donors typically support Republicans, but the Clintons also get strong support from them. The Republicans know that Obama has essentially zero support from big business, so they don't have to campaign too hard to get that part of the vote. They also know that Latinos don't like Obama too well, so they can siphon off that part of the vote. All in all, I think Obama sets the Republicans up pretty well to hold on to some of their stronghold constituents moreso than other candidates. In the end, I don't think any Republican can win this year, so it's probably a moot point.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Honestly, I sense that the "right" feels like Obama is the easier candidate to beat.<< They misunderestimate him, then. >>In the end, I don't think any Republican can win this year, so it's probably a moot point.<< If the economy continues in the direction it's going, I think you're definitely right. All Obama or Clinton would have to do is pin the economy on the Bush Administration and pretty much by default, McCain is toast.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I guess kimber didn't want to take my Pop Quiz. I wonder what that means...
