Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << There was simply no way EPCOT was going to fail. Disney knew enough about park construction by that time to be assured that EPCOT was going to be a success. And it was built where it was because that was Walt's original site for E.P.C.O.T. the city. I strongly doubt that there was ever even discussion about the possibility of closing EPCOT and just running the MK. Simply doesn't make sense. >> When EPCOT opened in 1982, the country was in a severe recession. Unemployment was greater than 10% and interest rates were high (problematic when you are a company that just borrowed a ton of money to build a theme park). There were many doubts about how EPCOT would go over. EPCOT is not a city and was never designed that way. The World Showcase portion of EPCOT was actually designed as a stand-alone park/entertainment center for WDW located on Bay Lake. There was lots of talk about closing EPCOT and selling it off when Disney got over their head and budget on the project. No one knew whether the U.S. economy was going to come out of its late 70s/early 80s doldrums. No one knew whether Disney would even survive as its own company. The corporate raiders were circling overhead all during the build-out of EPCOT.
Originally Posted By danyoung >EPCOT is not a city and was never designed that way.< I've got to believe that you know this isn't true, SG. E.P.C.O.T. was absolutely originally designed as a city, designed by Walt himself. Of course that changed by the mid-70's, as no one within the Disney company had the guts (or knew how) to build a totally controlled living environment. And while you may be correct about the state of the economy, I simply don't believe that Disney ever seriously considered the possibility of selling EPCOT off. Do you have any documentation?
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy EPCOT, as built, is not a city. It was never envisioned to become a city in its 1982 version. You might want to read a book called "Storming the Magic Kingdom," which describes a number of scenarios that were considered during the period of the early 80s when Disney was suffering financially and under the gun of takeover artists. The company narrowly escaped looking very different than it does today -- including the makeup of its Florida parks.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I wish they never opened the value resorts or started the Disney Dining Plan - I think these are two key factors in the degradation (along with fastpass).*** I've never had a run-in with this infamous "Disney Dining Plan", so I can't really comment. As for the "value" resorts, I can appreciate the concept. And I'd even be fine if those were made "value" also in the sense that THOSE folks need to hop on a bus to get to the action (perhaps a central hub of some sort would be appropriate...the TTC is a place I feel is underutilized as far as getting people to a central location, particularly the folks who AREN'T paying an arm and a leg...and a second hub would make sense these days perhaps somewhere in between DHS and DAK much as the TTC is located between MK and Epcot)... On fastpass, personally I likes it, so I can't really go there.
Originally Posted By danyoung >EPCOT, as built, is not a city. It was never envisioned to become a city in its 1982 version.< Of course it's not a city. But to say that E.P.C.O.T. didn't start out as a planned community is to ignore Disney history. >You might want to read a book called "Storming the Magic Kingdom,"...< I would like to read this, as the entire takeover in 1984 is of great fascination to me. I know all about Steinberg, Bass, Boesky and Jacobs and how Stanley Gold and Roy Disney maneuvered the Eisner/Wells takeover. But I've seen nothing in my research that indicates that EPCOT the park was in any way at risk, or that the company had plans to close it if it wasn't immediately successful. I'm open minded about it all, SG - show me some facts. Till then I'll continue to be skeptical.
Originally Posted By barboy ///At the risk of sounding aweful, I wish they never opened the value resorts or started the Disney Dining Plan - I think these are two key factors in the degradation/// I'll bet if you weren't bringing over euros or pounds that you wouldn't be so eager to rid the 'World' of value eats and stays. Very few(compared to the general population anyway) can afford to stay in G. Floridains/Californias, Polys or Beach/Yacht digs or put in for a table for 5 at Narcoosie's and the like for each nights dinner. And if there truly is a different 'element' that stays in the values compared to the rest of on-property resorts I haven't seen it. Interestingly(or should I say ironically) the only two episodes---one on each trip--- of 'trailer trash' behavior I've seen at WDW hotels went down at the Beach/Yacht at Stormalong, one in the pool and decking and the other trip in one of the hot tubs. I've stayed a total of 12 nights at the values spread over 3 trips/3 years and have never seen issues other than morning mayhem in the food courts where it gets quite busy and quite loud.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Yes I would. I far prefer less frequent trips of a higher quality. Disney used to be amongst the best. They no longer offer that as much in Fla. The Values look like abominations, and the dumbing down of the menus in the restaurants (caused by the dining plan) is unforgiveable. In fact, even if going because of the pound, many Brits do not bother with deluxes (and struggle to afford them too). We pay very high taxes and cost of living. I opted for a profession to fund my Disney habit. That was the key motivator. Others could do likewise.
Originally Posted By barboy ///The Values look like abominations/// I totally agree----they look absolutely riduclous with the oversized props and silly themes(other than All Star Movies which theme wise is just fine) of pop decades, music and sports. But where is the problem with those crazy stays anyway? They are tucked away and removed from the parks and higher end joints. If it's the 'element' that shows up there then I would see from where you're coming. Is there a lower class clientele associated with values? And I don't mean in financially but behaviorally.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Bad behaviour can exist at all levels of pocket books. However, our last experience was when WDW was full of teen cheerleaders and football players staying at the values. To be honest, I wonder if I am prejudiced against southerners. May be a possibility.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo But I do think, aiming for value level clientele justifies their cuts in quality across the resort, and that is not a good thing.
Originally Posted By barboy ///Bad behaviour can exist at all levels of pocket books/// Yep,..... kind of like what I was talking about at Stormalong Bay. I wish I had a video footage of the incidents---what a wonderful treat it would have been to show everyone on LP. The behavior was so over the top that upon watching the video I'm sure that some would have accused me of hiring actors and employing a script LOL! ///our last experience was when WDW was full of teen cheerleaders and football players staying at the values./// OH GOD NO! Yep, I'd want no part of that as well. ///To be honest, I wonder if I am prejudiced against southerners./// OK, now you've lost me....what do southerners(and I assume you mean Tx, La, Ms, Ga, Fl, Sc, Ak, Al, Tn and not Australians, S. Americans right?) have to do with the value hotels? Is there a correlation? If yes, then I had no idea that southerners stay there more than Poly or Old Key West.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I am kind of joking. It's just I enjoy the company of DL and DLP visitors far more than WDW guests.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I like the All Stars. Of course we usually use our DVC points to stay at a DVC resort or a non-DVC Deluxe. But for the occasional spur of the moment trip I have no problem with the All Stars. I particularly like the All Star Music. I've only run in to 'trailer trash' there one. They weren't southerners. The family (coincidentally) was British. A couple was sitting at the Pool Bar at the All Star Music, three quarters sloshed. They were just totally ragging on their two kids (I would guess ages 9 and 13) about how they had absolutely no appreciation for how much the trip cost yada, yada, yada. The poor kids were mortified. It really was unpleasant to view. But other than that I've never seen anything at the All Stars that I thought was somehow beneath me.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I am kind of joking. It's just I enjoy the company of DL and DLP visitors far more than WDW guests.>> Ahhh... you don't enjoy Americans. You enjoy Californians!! They certainly are a different breed.
Originally Posted By barboy ///I am kind of joking. It's just I enjoy the company of DL and DLP visitors far more than WDW guests./// Not me..... just one very general feeling and loose observation----- but it looks like WDW guests are quicker to open up conversation with strangers than Disneylanders; I find myself always talking with people whom I do not know at the 'World', which is a good thing! It happens very little at Dl Resort because guests proportionately are day visitors coming in from San Diego, Riverside and Tarzana. I believe this is due to: 1) southern staters are more inclined to tap WDW and I've notice those cats love to talk--which, again, is a good thing. 2) WDW goers are 'on vacation' so they are more at ease and are quicker to yap....GENERALLY 3) WDW guests come from afar-- usually by plane-- and bring their regional accents with them. This can stimulate interest among those riding buses, standing in lines or relaxing in resort pools together: "So what park are you going to tommorrow?" "Have you been on that Tower of Terror yet?" "How long are you staying for?" As for DlParis I haven't been there anywhere near enough times to try to compare or contrast.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I wouldn't rely too much on 'Storming The Kingdom' or any book for reliable information regarding the rise and fall of Michael Eisner at Disney. While the book was highly entertaining, it certainly didn't provide an accurate account of everything going on at Disney. I recall it, much like Kim Masters' book 'Keys To the Kingdom', was rife with basic factual mistakes, especially in regard to the parks. Things that most fanboys would immediately flag. For example, one of them had Disney outright owning the parks in Tokyo, while another had them owning them partially. In fact, we all here know Disney doesn't own even one percent of the parks. They also each spun fanciful renditions of why and how the Swan and Dolphin came to be. There appears to be a lot of revisionist history about EPCOT Center and it almost pulling the company down into a financial abyss. I think what most people don't realize (or mistate on fan discussion boards) is that EC wasn't financed. It was largely paid for the old-fashioned way .... cash. EC was a very big hit when it opened. It immediately added days to people's WDW visits. Back in the 70s many people saw WDW as a day trip on a larger Florida vacation. That paradigm shifted dramatically when EC debutted. I wish I had it in front of me, but I recall redaing an internal Disney study in the mid-80s that showed how average stays had gone from something like 1.6 days to over four after EC opened. So it grows tiresome to hear absurd notions puked forth here that EPCOT was ever in danger of being closed or even seriously sold off (yes, this idea was floated, but many ideas have been. doesn't make them realistic!) Indeed, all of the growth of WDW as a destination resort (good, bad and ugly) can be traced back to EC's opening.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<And if there truly is a different 'element' that stays in the values compared to the rest of on-property resorts I haven't seen it. Interestingly(or should I say ironically) the only two episodes---one on each trip--- of 'trailer trash' behavior I've seen at WDW hotels went down at the Beach/Yacht at Stormalong, one in the pool and decking and the other trip in one of the hot tubs. I've stayed a total of 12 nights at the values spread over 3 trips/3 years and have never seen issues other than morning mayhem in the food courts where it gets quite busy and quite loud.>> Trash exists and lodges at Disney resorts of every level. I have seen just as much, if not more, boorish behavior when I've stayed at the GF, YC and WL as I have when I've been at the ASMu or POP. Money doesn't buy class, just like not having it doesn't mean someone doesn't posess it. And it really depends on the time of the year and the luck of the draw whether you wind up at a resort full of yahoos (with or sans money) or with a resort full of nice families. It's like Forest's mama always said, 'Disney Resorts are a like a box of ...'
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ///Bad behaviour can exist at all levels of pocket books/// <<Yep,..... kind of like what I was talking about at Stormalong Bay. I wish I had a video footage of the incidents---what a wonderful treat it would have been to show everyone on LP. The behavior was so over the top that upon watching the video I'm sure that some would have accused me of hiring actors and employing a script LOL!>> My last stay at the YC, which basically got that place checked off my list of WDW resorts to stay at the place was loaded with people who looked to be trailer trash. I have no idea how they could afford to stay there considering the least expensive discounted room at the time was about $189 plus tax and these folks looked like they'd have had trouble finding $39.99. I recall sitting in one of the jacuzzi's at Stormalong when this 350-pound woman with multiple tatts and piercings wearing UNDERWEAR that wasn't hiding a thing got into the tub, lit up a smoke and then proceeded to tell off her husband/boyfriend/partner/traveling companion in the worst possible language. It was all magical.
Originally Posted By barboy Hey Spirt you weren't at Stormalong in first week of Oct. '05 were you?? Your story has some overlap to mine. This beyond huge lady was in the pool and was just verbally ripping into some very thin male(presumably husband) something fierce who was sitting next to her on the pool's deck edge.... but I don't remember tattoos nor underwear. It was such a event people were exiting the pool and deck area grabbing their young and taking off like the scene from Caddyshack when 'Spalding' saw a Baby Ruth candybar floating in the resort pool thinking it was human waste.
