Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Cliven Bundy armed militia thugs get a free pass, while reporters get arrested and tear gassed just doing their jobs. American democracy is over. Conservative White America completely runs the show.>> I know, in fact pointed just that out on a local bulletin board (I did word it somewhat differently). It wasn't appreciated. People there think I'm a Socialist. People here think I'm a Nazi. Whatever... says more about prevailing local attitudes than it says about me.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>People here think I'm a Nazi.<< It was the hidden swastika in "RoadTrip" that tipped us off I don't think anyone thinks you're a Nazi. Maybe one person, but no one else.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ That may be... but the majority of posters on the local board I'm talking about DO think I'm a socialist and have said so. After all, I admit to having voted for Obama. Twice. They may have been willing to forgive me for the first vote. The second one was the kiss of death. To do that I HAD to be a socialist.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip And even with that one person here, my reaction is more often based on how she says things that what is behind the thought. That is my Minnesota showing... Minnesotans tend to be very non-confrontational. Our most typical reaction to something we don't like is "well, that's INTERESTING". If you don't believe me just ask Garrison Keillor. ;-) My responses are 0% SW Missouri. Outside of adapting to the hotter weather, I haven't adapted here well at all. I detest the place with a passion. But my wife has a mother, kids and four grandkids here so I am stuck.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I'm not understanding everything going on here. Mike Brown was killed by a cop, tragically it seems. And now we have protesters. What are they protesting? How are they protesting? Are they following appropriate laws of protest? What specifically do they want? And if it's peaceful protest, why are cops being power crazy?
Originally Posted By utahjosh This video was great to show the tension on the ground, but it doesn't answer my questions: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000003055806/standoff-with-police-in-ferguson.html?smid=tw-share">http://www.nytimes.com/video/u...tw-share</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <But that still doesn't justify looting. You still try to justify illegal actions of one side by pointing out illegal actions on the other. > Where did SB try to justify looting? I'm not seeing it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip She never specifically connected the dots. But by constantly pointing out historical discrimination in the area (no argument there) and illegal police actions (no argument there either) she appeared to be be trying to justify the looting and burning. If that was not her intent, my bad. She appeared to support the position in the link posted by ecdc... that looting should not even be considered when looking at these events. Her strong disagreement with what I said seemed to indicate that. I said I thought the cop involved should be dismissed and jailed... I certainly did not support his actions. I just said I thought it did not justify burning and looting. What else could she be reacting to? The fact that I didn't say the cop should be put to death?
Originally Posted By Yookeroo "she appeared to be be trying to justify the looting and burning. If that was not her intent, my bad. She appeared to support the position in the link posted by ecdc." She's giving contest as to why it happens. And that it becomes a distraction to the real issue. Looting is a minor problem compared to the big issue and the systemic problem we have. You've actually shown why she's right. It's become a distraction in this thread. "And if it's peaceful protest, why are cops being power crazy?" LOL.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I didn't create the distraction. The looters did. They need to realize they are hurting their own cause (if they actually have one other than getting free stuff).
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Could we please have some critical thinking on this board? I don't expect every Joe Six Pack watching Fox News every night to engage in logic. If they did, they wouldn't be watching Fox News. But you folks are smart enough and educated enough to know better. You're making a false assumption regarding the looters. Where did you get the idea that the looters are directly connected to the protesters? Why do you believe that the looters actually give a flying fart about what the protestors are upset about? The looters, more than likely, are simply a bunch of selfish low level criminals who are taking advantage of the protests in order to score free stuff. If there wasn't a protest going on, they'd more than likely be participating in their regular shoplifting from the local 7-11 or CVS. Their actions are not "hurting their own cause" because their cause does not involve justice for Michael Brown. Their "cause" is far more self-centered than that.
Originally Posted By utahjosh There a many issues and problems at play here. We don't know if the looters were part of the protest. I'm sure most protesters were not looting. My questions is what are they protesting? Racism? Police brutality? What specifically are they protesting against, and what do they want to be done to fix it?
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Journalists continue to be blocked by Ferguson law enforcement: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nationaljournal.com/domesticpolicy/how-police-are-keeping-journalists-from-doing-their-jobs-in-ferguson-20140814">http://www.nationaljournal.com...20140814</a> From the article: <> I had never witnessed police treat journalists like this in the four years I worked as a crime reporter in South Florida. Some officers have tried to keep me away from crime scenes, but never stopped me from covering a story altogether. It was also the first time I had ever felt afraid of a police officer. Flores and I felt far more afraid of them than we did of any protesters. What the Ferguson police have done to journalists and demonstrators brings up First Amendment issues, said John Watson, a lawyer and a media law professor at American University in Washington. "You generally have the right to view police as they do any of their official duties in public," he said. However, journalists cannot impede their efforts to perform these duties, he adds. Using safety as a reason to stop journalists from covering a protest is a weak argument, said Watson, who previously worked as a journalist for 21 years. Police hostility is always highest when journalists are covering protests against something an officer has done, he says, such as the shooting of Michael Brown. "This is a demonstration against police behavior and they see it as 'us against them.' That changes the dynamic," he said. By the time Flores and I made it to the protest site late Wednesday night after four-and-a-half hours, police had dispersed most of the demonstrators with tear gas and rubber bullets. They were lining up a few protesters they had arrested when we arrived. Flores filmed the scene from the sidewalk across the street. A group of police in riot gear and armed with rifles approached us and ordered us to leave. "We're gonna put you under arrest if you don't leave the area. This is your final warning," an officer told us. "We don't want to have to take you to jail but we definitely will, OK?" one said. We didn't go to jail, we didn't get arrested, but we also didn't get the story. <> Un-freakin-believable that this is happening in America.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<What specifically are they protesting against, and what do they want to be done to fix it?>> Simple. Unarmed African American teen was shot in cold blood by white Ferguson police officer. Three witnesses have stepped forward and corroborated each other's stories. Plus, there's video proving the police's explanation of what happened is false. Ferguson Police are doing a very bad job of investigating as well as hiding the identity of the cop who shot the kid. The protesters want the name and badge number of the cop, and they want him arrested and tried for murder. That's what the protesters are angry about. The Ferguson Police are protecting a murderer because he's in uniform. And the community has had enough.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <They need to realize they are hurting their own cause (if they actually have one other than getting free stuff).> They don't. We shouldn't confuse the protesters and the looters.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <<<Simple. Unarmed African American teen was shot in cold blood by white Ferguson police officer. Three witnesses have stepped forward and corroborated each other's stories. Plus, there's video proving the police's explanation of what happened is false.>> Okay, so they want an apology and a prosecution of the officer? And, I suppose, an investigation about a racist culture in the force? I whole-heartedly support that. <<<Ferguson Police are doing a very bad job of investigating as well as hiding the identity of the cop who shot the kid. The protesters want the name and badge number of the cop, and they want him arrested and tried for murder.>>> Great, me too. So they gather in the streets and demand this? Good for them. Shame on any rioters or those that use violence in any way, especially toward the police. Shame on the police for not doing better and fully investigating the matter, and for what appears to be harboring a murderer. As for the tension now in the streets, I just don't know the law about protesting. I'm assuming the police haven't used any violence unless they've felt threatened, and if they have, shame on them.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I'm assuming the police haven't used any violence unless they've felt threatened, and if they have, shame on them.>> They feel threatened because they don't want one of their own to go to jail for murder. They don't see it as murder. They're very corrupt cops coming from a bigoted department well-known to former Ferguson police officers as being highly racist through and through. And yes, they are using violence against peaceful protesters and innocent bystanders and deliberately censoring journalists which is blatantly unconstitutional. The Ferguson Police Chief is an arrogant blowhard who should be fired if not jailed for his leadership failures and tacit approval of his force's illegal actions: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/ferguson-tear-gas_n_5679209.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...209.html</a> <> WASHINGTON -- Ferguson Police Chief Thomas Jackson had few answers for reporters who wanted to know why officers dressed in full riot gear were throwing tear gas and firing rubber bullets during largely peaceful protests against the killing of Michael Brown. He also appeared to have little sympathy for individuals who were caught up in the melee, essentially saying it was their own fault for being out. "If individuals are in a crowd that's attacking the police, they need to get out of that crowd," Jackson said during a Thursday afternoon press conference. "We can't individually go in and say, 'Excuse me sir, are you peacefully protesting? Are you throwing rocks? Are you throwing a Molotov cocktail?' It's a crowd. If the crowd is getting violent and you don't want to be violent, get out of the crowd." The Ferguson Police Department has been under fire since one of its officers shot and killed Brown, an unarmed African American teenager, on Aug. 9. The police department has refused to release the name of the officer or give more details about the incident, and there have been nightly protests by community members who are frustrated by the lack of justice. The police department's response to the protests has escalated racial tensions in Ferguson, a St. Louis suburb. The predominantly white police force has regularly come out in full riot gear and officers have not restricted their use of tear gas to instances of violence. While there has been some looting and vandalism, the protests have largely been peaceful. Yet officers have continued to use tear gas, even firing at protesters who were standing in their own backyard. Last night, officers used tear gas and rubber bullets on an Al Jazeera America news crew. When the journalists ran to safety, the officers appeared to take and destroy their equipment. The Huffington Post's Christine Conetta and MSNBC's Trymaine Lee were also caught in crowds of tear gas while out covering the protests in Ferguson Wednesday night. In an interview Thursday on MSBNC, Lee took issue with Jackson's contention that officers fired tear gas in response to violence from protesters. "I was standing just about 35 feet away from the armored vehicles when they first fired off those canisters of tear gas," Lee said. "Somebody did throw a bottle or something off one of those trucks. But I didn't hear any gunfire. I didn't see any molotov cocktails, any rocks being flung. Within 20 seconds of whatever did hit one of the police vehicles, the police said, this is no longer a peaceful protest. You must disperse immediately. Within 15 seconds, the first canister started to be fired into the crowd." <> The sooner these guys are removed from their positions of power, the better.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip OK. I can accept that. The looters don't really give a rat's ass about what happened . They are opportunists using the situation to get free stuff that they would otherwise have to steal over in north St. Louis. Pretty much what I suspected from the start. But when you blast "the system" for the entire situation you seem to be endorsing the looting as well as the protesting. When we talk about it rationally we actually arrive at common ground. Imagine that.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Almost. But... "But when you blast "the system" for the entire situation you seem to be endorsing the looting as well as the protesting" You are inferring (incorrectly) something out of something nobody said.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I am probably on "your side" more often than you imagine. I am well aware of the bigotry of people down here. It extends to anyone not just like them, and it is not reserved for Blacks. It includes Yankee transplants from Minnesota. I've been told many times on the local bulletin board to go back to Minnesota... that they don't need or want "my type" down here. Their history of bigotry is long and varied. In the 1830's they harassed, murdered and ultimately drove Mormons who had settled in the area NE of Kansas City out of the state. Who knows, some here may not have a hard time with that. But it is just another example of them not liking ANYONE who is different. The area I live in is physically quite beautiful, the cost of living is low, the weather is moderate (especially compared to Minnesota) and the people (on the surface) are friendly. But once I truly knew the area I wanted nothing more than to leave it. But it was too late. It doesn't even have to be Minnesota... just anywhere but here. But I'm also not about to abandon my "Minnesota sensibilities" when it comes to discussions about things. If I did, I would no longer be who I am. That is about all I have left living in this God-forsaken place.
