Originally Posted By ecdc >>And now we have protesters. What are they protesting? How are they protesting? Are they following appropriate laws of protest? What specifically do they want?<< To stop being singled out by police because of the color of their skin. To bring equality to America's criminal justice system, which is completely, totally, unequivocally racist. As often, www.vox.com is our friend to understand the news. Here's evidence of America's racist criminal justice system: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6002175/its-not-just-ferguson-americas-criminal-justice-system-is-racist/in/5757650">http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6.../5757650</a> Here's a short, 2 min video explaining the roots of Ferguson's unrest: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6003681/the-roots-of-unrest-in-ferguson-explained-in-2-minutes/in/5757650">http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6.../5757650</a> >>And if it's peaceful protest, why are cops being power crazy?<< That's just it--the cops response could not be a more perfect example of exactly what the people are protesting. Imagine this happened in an upscale, mostly white neighborhood. When protestors turn out, is this the response of cops? So why is it the response of cops in this neighborhood? Here's an article on how cops use force against black protestors more often than white protestors: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6003433/ferguson-protests-study-racism/in/5757650">http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6.../5757650</a> And here's a good primer on the militarization of America's police forces. As someone else said, militaries are to repel foreign invaders and attack enemies, police departments are to protect and serve. But when they get turned into a military, we can't be shocked when they treat the same people they're supposed to protect like the enemy. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6003239/police-militarization-in-ferguson/in/5757650">http://www.vox.com/2014/8/14/6.../5757650</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "I am probably on "your side" more often than you imagine." No, I get that, RT, really. I know you are. And I have tons of family in MO, including SW MO. I get it. I just think you leaped to a conclusion about SB's post.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip As I said, her tone violated my sense of "Minnesota Nice". Being told to STFU can do that. Many of her posts do that. It is hard for me to read past the tone to get to the meat. Again, I will not apologize for that. Being Minnesotan is who I am.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Now a true leader, a smart man, is in charge of the crowd control. And he is doing an AMAZING job: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2014/08/14/with-highway-patrol-hugs-and-kisses-replace-tear-gas-in-ferguson/">http://www.washingtonpost.com/...erguson/</a> Had the cops had this attitude from the beginning, the last few nights would not have been an embarrassment for many involved.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Being Minnesotan is who I am.>> And being from the Bay Area is who I am. Your remark was a slam. Period. It was an insult. And you fully deserved the STFU for making it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ The insult was out of line, but the rest is probably very true, and that is what I always assume. Probably a great example of how in my opinion those in the BAY AREA feel far superior and more knowledgeable than what could ever originate somewhere else. Whatever. As a lifelong Minnesotan I have to dispute that. As a resident of where I currently live, I just don't know.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Again, I will not apologize for that. Being Minnesotan is who I am.> Being Minnesotan is fine, obviously; inferring (and then stating) that SB was okay with looting is not, no matter where she's from, and even if you felt insulted. That's all I'm saying. <Had the cops had this attitude from the beginning, the last few nights would not have been an embarrassment for many involved. > That's exactly right, Josh. Last night was completely different than all the previous nights. Why? The people out protesting weren't different - by and large they were the same people. The POLICING was different. And reveals what the real problem was with the atmosphere of tension of the previous nights. It was de-militarized, it was professional - they were there to keep the peace and only keep the peace. They didn't view the citizens as an "other" to be subdued and kept in line; they viewed them as citizens. They treated the protesters with respect. And the protesters returned that respect. Imagine that.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>in my opinion those in the BAY AREA feel far superior and more knowledgeable than what could ever originate somewhere else<< LOL, it's always interesting how the Bay Area is portrayed nationally as being all of one mindset. Anyone who spends more than a weekend here would soon see that the political and social dynamics here are anything but some simple caricature of being all "lefty." It's quite complex and diverse actually, but it's easier to write off the whole area as being superior, I guess. I like this region a lot. Of course, I'm a native here, but I don't have a great desire to move elsewhere. I also don't think the Bay Area has all the answers and has plenty of problems, too. However, we have a pretty good track record in regards to most civil rights issues (though also plenty of hideous examples of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. as well through the years). A lot of ideas about being inclusive and diverse that get put into place here are almost always loudly mocked and jeered in the heartland, before eventually being implemented in other parts of the country and becoming "common sense." But no, I don't think this area has a lock on the best ideas nor does it have all the answers. So can we lose that stereotype, perhaps?
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly, apparently not responding like an invading army gets people to chill out a little. Who'd a thunk it? And now cops are saying Michael Brown was a robbery suspect. Which only continues to reinforce the point I'm making about race. I grew up in an upper middle-class neighborhood. I had friends who shoplifted (I was too chicken). They were white, got good grades, and were just dumb teenagers. Some of them got caught, most didn't. But when they did, they were detained by the store, cops showed up, filled out paperwork, their parents picked them up and yelled at them. That was it. None of them ended up dead. Compare that to this. Michael Brown is a teenager who shoplifted. But now he's dead and it's framed as a "robbery" which sounds far more nefarious than shoplifting, as though he held up the cashier with a gun. THIS is the point I'm making. This crap happens in this country because of race. People keep saying, "I can't believe this happens in America." They need to stop saying it. White supremacy and the subjugation of blacks through law enforcement and extralegal violence is woven into the fabric of our national identity. This is who we are, this is what our nation is. You don't just get to have Lincoln and FDR and Neil Armstrong. This is part of it too. Owning it is how we fix it.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And now cops are saying Michael Brown was a robbery suspect.<< And we'll soon get Fb photos of him wearing a hoody and that he liked rap music and did poorly in school and before long, he'll be a violent ticking time bomb that was just waiting to explode and the whole trial by media that is sure to happen. As sure as I'm sitting here, that's what's next.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>This is what happens when police forces get wartime weapons and gear. Welcome to the land of the free!<< People are shrugging their shoulders because they mistakenly believe that the militarized police won't be coming into their neighborhoods, because after all, "we aren't like those people". Yet I see the police militarizing itself right here in my lilly white, idyllic town. Since we don't have "those kind of people" here why do we need cops trained and equipped like soldiers in my little burg? Why do they need armored vehicles or military grade firearms? This isn't some crime ridden real world Gotham, this is a town that has next to no crime, so little that few people wire their homes with alarms.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>And we'll soon get Fb photos of him wearing a hoody and that he liked rap music and did poorly in school and before long, he'll be a violent ticking time bomb that was just waiting to explode and the whole trial by media that is sure to happen. As sure as I'm sitting here, that's what's next.<< Soon the will say that he was hepped on on purple drank and was beating the cop's head into the sidewalk, even though no one saw that happen.
Originally Posted By ecdc You cannot make this stuff up: Reporting has emerged that Ferguson police once beat a black man and then charged him with destruction of property for getting blood on their uniforms.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The suburb I live in is a community of 29,000. Family income is above the national average and considerably above the Missouri average. The local school district is the highest rated district in Missouri. It is more than 95% white and the crime rate is extremely low. This is the latest plaything of the local police department: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/e0e4a2f4bbe02b7e071dcf70fe94a1561e0dc1bf/c=0-98-4071-3159&r=x513&c=680x510/local/-/media/Springfield/Springfield/2014/07/15/1405451326006-MAIN-Nixa-1-A004-2014-06-16-IMG-Frontjpg-1-1-S97LOJJC-L43447.jpg">http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm...3447.jpg</a> Of course given the hard-right politics of the area, the locals are convinced it will be used when Obama gives the order to confiscate their guns. Now back to Michael Brown. Let's not play word games with his alleged crime. He didn't put stuff in his pockets and walk out the door. He went to the counter and demanded stuff from the clerk. That isn't shoplifting, it is robbery. It is not armed robbery. The cops had every right to call him over to talk to him. His clothing matched that of the suspect. The cops didn't harass him just because he was a Black kid walking in the street. But the issue remains the same as it was yesterday. Was the use of lethal force justified? I really see no way that it could have been. That is the issue.
Originally Posted By EighthDwarf Watch the video, this was not a simple shoplifting. Whoever that was in the video is enormous and behaved like a total thug. If that was Michael Brown, it makes it a lot more believable that he was behaving like a thug around the cops, which is a stupid thing to do no matter what race you are. It will be interesting to see how this develops...
Originally Posted By ecdc >>If that was Michael Brown, it makes it a lot more believable that he was behaving like a thug around the cops, which is a stupid thing to do no matter what race you are.<< Again, we are flipping the discourse in the wrong direction. Poverty, violence, and thug culture are not the cause of the problem, but they are the symptom of the problem, and the problem is a nation of white supremacy. So again, we have the tree of a kid got shot (but hey, he mighta been a robber!) stuck in a forest of dead black kids and white people who get away with it. *That* is the issue here, no matter how much people try and make it about the character or behavior of Michael Brown.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I'm pretty sure the Ferguson PD has said they don't have them, or at least that car didn't.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<The cops didn't harass him just because he was a Black kid walking in the street.>> Actually, that's exactly what they did. The cops had no idea he was a robbery suspect when they approached him for "blocking traffic": <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/tom-jackson-michael-brown_n_5682762.html">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...762.html</a> <> Ferguson Police Chief Tom Jackson said Friday the initial contact between 18-year-old Michael Brown and police officer Darren Wilson was not related to a convenience store robbery. Brown, an unarmed black teenager, was shot and killed by Wilson on Saturday, August 9. In a press conference earlier on Friday, Ferguson police released a report naming Brown as the main suspect in a convenience store robbery where a box of Swisher Sweets cigars valued at $48.99 was stolen and a clerk was allegedly shoved. Video of the incident allegedly showing Brown, which was released to the public, "had nothing to do with the stop" and was "unrelated" to Wilson's contact with Brown, Jackson said. He said video of the convenience store incident was released in response to Freedom of Information Act requests. "The initial contact between Darren Wilson and Mike Brown was not related to the alleged theft of cigars," Jackson said, indicating Wilson did not know Brown was a suspect in the robbery. Jackson said Wilson was in the area "coming off a sick case," and initiated contact with Brown because the teenager was "blocking traffic, that's it." When asked about Wilson, Jackson said he is "a gentleman, a quiet officer" who found the incident "devastating." "He never intended for any of this to happen," Jackson said. <> So the kid was unarmed and presumably had just stolen cigars and was walking in the street. Yeah, that's a good reason to shoot someone *multiple times* until they're dead. The Ferguson Police Dept lawyers are trotting out the tried-n-true "he's a thief!" excuse to taint prospective jurors' minds before the cop's trial. They will do anything and everything in their power to get their boy in uniform acquitted of any charges. The "Demonize Michael Brown a la Trayvon Martin" machine is in full swing.
