Originally Posted By utahjosh ecdc, I'm not putting blame on protesters. I'm sincerely asking what they are protesting - what would it take for them to stop protesting, and what's the purpose? Protesting is wonderful. But if it has no clear purpose, then it's just dangerous.
Originally Posted By utahjosh ecdc, I expect better from you - you were assuming the worst when reading my posts, rather than taking them for face value. You misread my intent completely. I am advocating real dialogue and solutions.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox The very fact that we are all on this thread discussing the protesters in Ferguson is the purpose of the protesting, Josh. If the protesters weren't showing up each night in Ferguson, no one would be giving a tinker's damn about this unarmed teen being shot 8 times by a police officer. We would have moved on to another news story elsewhere in the media. "Just another shooting... move along, move along..." The protesters are on TV and getting noticed. Their actions are getting folks around the country to SIT UP AND PAY ATTENTION to the racism and police militarization that plagues much of the nation. Nothing will be done to change these things until people start talking about it, acknowledge their disgust for it, and demand action from their elected officials to do something about it. That's what the protests are for. And it saddens me that an otherwise intelligent individual such as yourself, Josh, cannot figure this out.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Because ecdc and don't seek common ground or solutions. All they will accept is agreement on what they feel the problem is. And many of those on the other side of the issue do much the same. That is why these things keep happening and probably always will. It is why nothing ever gets accomplished in Congress. Americans no longer want solutions to anything. They just want to "win".
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ should have been "ecdc and some others". Sure wish we had an edit function.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Hey, funny you should mention that. A group started a voter registration drive by setting up a tent near where Michael Brown was killed. Guess who's not happy about it? Shocker! Republicans. In fact, they called it "disgusting." <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-ma...sgusting>">http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-ma...ting></a> Wow! Little did I know when I posted #134 that what I predicted had already happened. From the link: "Voter participation in Ferguson, Missouri, has been poor of late, with just 12% turnout in the most recent election. As the Rev. Al Sharpton, host of msnbc’s “Politics Nation,” said at the Greater Grace Church’s during Sunday services, “You all have got to start voting and showing up. 12% turnout is an insult to your children.” With this in mind, as we discussed yesterday, some in the community have set up a tent in Ferguson to host a voter-registration drive. As one volunteer put it, “We’re trying to make young people understand that this is how to change things.” So, Donny, your #133? Asked and answered. And yet, what is the response? "In an interview with Breitbart News, Missouri RNC executive director Matt Wills expressed outrage about the reports. “If that’s not fanning the political flames, I don’t know what is,” Wills said, “I think it’s not only disgusting but completely inappropriate.” Wills is described by the RNC as the executive director of the Missouri Republican Party. I’ll confess, it never occurred to me conservatives would describe a voter-registration drive as “disgusting.” It’s worth fleshing out how and why some on the right have reached this conclusion. If I understand the Republican argument, the concern is one over exploitation – for Ferguson residents to host a voter-registration drive in the midst of protests is, as one critic put it, evidence of “liberals” using “racially divisive controversies for political gain.” I’m not sure if there’s any evidence that “liberals” are responsible for registering people to vote, but that’s certainly one way to look at it. That said, I hope those who are “disgusted” by the voter-registration drive will take a moment to consider a different perspective. It’s become clear over the last week or so that many in Ferguson feel powerless and alienated in their own community. It’s led to a disengagement in public affairs, as evidenced by 12% voter turnout, and a powder-keg of frustration. But some in the community have decided that this crisis can also be a wake-up call – those who want to make a meaningful difference have to overcome cynicism and complacency when it comes to civic affairs. Indeed, for all the anger that’s evident in this St. Louis suburb, some have decided to tell their friends and neighbors that it’s time to direct their frustrations into positive, constructive action. And that starts with getting registered to vote. That’s not exploitation. "
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Well, geez. Why wouldn't the Republicans be upset that angry African-Americans might be going to that tent and registering to vote? Once they're registered, they might actually show up to the polls on Election Day and vote the incumbent white Republicans out of office! Given that two-thirds of the town is African-American, it could happen. And after all of that hard work on part of the GOP to demonize ACORN into non-existence, too. Bigots.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>You misread my intent completely. I am advocating real dialogue and solutions.<< Apologies. I don't think the people need to be advocating, at least at this point, for any specific changes. I think protesting over the death of an unarmed man and excessive police force is a legitimate reason to assemble. The point in this case can be to let community leaders know how fed up they are. It is likely that, because of all of this and the media attention, changes will be made.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Because ecdc and don't seek common ground or solutions. All they will accept is agreement on what they feel the problem is.<< No, I just dismiss the usual suspects saying, "Well gee, both sides are to blame." It's intellectually lazy and it only serves to exacerbate the very problems that need fixing. It gets tiring listening to the same people try and project an air of reasonability and moderation by staking out a false middle ground. Staking out middle ground and calling for calm has always led to the same thing in this country: the status quo. It's the exact same thing people said about Dr. King. Telling protesters to disperse and to just chill out is just one more way to subjugate African Americans in this country. "Hey y'all, just relax and the current power structure of overwhelmingly white people that's never taken you seriously before will totally get on this and fix it." Blaming the protesters, or spending most of your time talking about the protesters while paying lip service to "Oh and the cops might've overreacted" is just unequivocally wrong in this particular situation.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>My father in law, whom we recently buried, was a Sergeant with the Los Angeles Police Department. << Your dad was an old school cop. The remark was not about him, but about people who kow tow to modern day, abusive police, who defend them and their actions no matter how increasing abusive they become. As I have said before, every encounter I have had with the police in the past 15 years or so (all routine stuff, like traffic stops, when someone rear ended me or even just asking for simple directions) have all been negative. This is in stark contrast to my experiences prior to that when the peace officers where always courteous and even friendly. And I refuse to be a boot licker and support these modern day "police".
Originally Posted By ecdc So we can disagree about when it's ok to disperse a crowd. Can we all agree that police officers should be required to wear badges and have some sort of way of being identified? Because cops in Ferguson have taken off name badges and are acting anonymously. So not only are cops arresting journalists and others, holding them for a few hours (or overnight), and then releasing them without charges, we can't even identify which police officers are doing this. The cops in Ferguson are acting with impunity. The protesters aren't the problem. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.vox.com/2014/8/19/6043483/ferguson-police-impunity">http://www.vox.com/2014/8/19/6...impunity</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc >>This is in stark contrast to my experiences prior to that when the peace officers where always courteous and even friendly.<< That's just it. I'm white and I don't trust the cops. I think that's increasingly the experience of most people. And the disconnect is that by and large, as individuals, cops are certainly great people. They mean well and they want to help people. But there has clearly been a massive shift in the way police officers engage the public in the last twenty years or so. It infects even the best officers. So the cop who would be sitting at home criticizing the behaviors of cops in Ferguson would do exactly the same things in the same situation. It's a culture, and it has a serious problem.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip This article did more to inform me than five years of ecdc and skinnerbox accusations, rants and name-calling. You CAN change peoples' minds. Information presented rationally and sympathetically is more effective than bitter screeds. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.blogher.com/white-privilege-reality?page=full">http://www.blogher.com/white-p...age=full</a>
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Who said anything about my only motivation being to change people's minds? Many times, I post as a defense to some half-baked nonsense being spewed about Democrats or liberals or the Bay Area or me personally. Or to defend folks like ecdc and Dabob. And there you go again. Discounting any link to well-written articles with excellent information because, supposedly, everything I write is nothing but a "bitter screed." You, of course, always take the high road, never resort to name calling or derisive insulting quips or anything that would disrespect someone else's opinion. Oh, no. That only comes from folks like me and ecdc. Never from RT. He's perfect! Excuse me whilst I find a compostable bag to pwuke into. 8^P
Originally Posted By skinnerbox I went to the link at BlogHer and read the article. Interesting insight. I guess I've been incorrect in not sharing my experiences when living in Florida in the seventies during the Cuban refugee crisis, and seeing my first KKK rally with hundreds of protestors in their white robes standing on the side of the main highway through town and how the cops didn't do anything to remove them. I guess I also should have written about how we couldn't get base housing right away, and could only afford to live in the poor section of town which was far less than 50% white, and the crap attitude of everyone towards the non-whites in restaurants, grocery stores, etc, and how that got turned onto you lest you show any friendliness towards minorities. And I guess I should have also written about how I lost my job at an electronics manufacturing facility in town for standing up for the only African-American employee who was being harassed by the other employees and accused of assaulting another employee, supposedly in front of me. (I was quietly told to testify against her "or else.") She was also a military wife who sat next to me at the end of the work bench because no one else would sit next to her, and was only hired to keep the DoD off their backs for lack of diversity since they only did defense contracting. I've seen more than enough of white privilege crap in my life. And I'm thoroughly sickened by all of it. But because I don't tiptoe around this issue and present it with kid gloves to the point of inducing somnolence, I'm just a bitter liberal from the Bay Area who only knows how to accuse, rant, and name call. I never claimed to be Miss Manners. And I guess around here, that's a criminal offense.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 The articles linked to in #151 and #153 are both excellent and well worth a read.
Originally Posted By barboy2 .....real question to ecdc, skinnerbox and Dabob2: Assuming this inicident was indeed an execution, do you feel that police killed Brown because he was black? Again, assuming murder, do you leave room for the possibility that police killed Brown due to his size/stature and/or gender?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder A 30 year old newly elected black Long Beach City councilman, apparently a former resident of the area near Ferguson, decided to write an open letter to the people there. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lbreport.com/news/aug14/richmo1.htm">http://www.lbreport.com/news/a...hmo1.htm</a>
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I don't think it was an execution. My best guess ( and it's only a guess) is that the cop in effect did his job poorly. He reacted badly to being mouthed off to, or was just having one of those days we all have... the trouble is, when you run into, say, a customer service rep doing his job poorly, you just have a bad phone experience. When it's a cop, it can be far more serious. Cops are held to a higher standard and rightly so - they are an arm of the State and they wield lethal force. They are supposed to remain calm even if provoked. They're only human, but if they do screw up and someone dies, they need to be investigated, and held accountable if warranted.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ And I support every bit of what you said. But let's wait for the completed investigation to decide whether or not he is guilty of murder. You final sentence seems to suggest you agree.
