Originally Posted By Dabob2 Of course. But it does seem to me that the Ferguson PD is doing everything it can to blame the victim. They released the incident report from the convenience store instantly (and it still isn't definite that it was even Brown), yet still won't release the incident report from the shooting.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I would assume the report has not been completed yet... there seems to be a lot that is still unknown. Releasing the video when they did was a mistake. It should have waited until after Brown's funeral and after the situation had calmed, if it was released at all.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Assuming this inicident was indeed an execution, do you feel that police killed Brown because he was black?<< Like Dabob2, I don't think it was an execution. I think it was likely an overreaction on the cop's part. And I'm all for an investigation to find out what happened. But here's the thing...a cop got shot and killed here where I live earlier this year. No one was saying "Hey now, let's all slow down before we start pointing fingers at the shooter. Let's wait for an investigation." I think the cop culture attitude of circle the wagons and protect our own is a serious problem. There should be transparency from the beginning. Releasing the details that Michael Brown was under suspicion of robbery, when the officer who shot him didn't even know that, was appalling. Michael Brown wasn't targeted in some Klan-style assassination. But would he still be alive if he were white? Would Trayvon? Would any number of the other young black men killed by cops? I think it's extremely likely that if the circumstances were exactly the same and Brown were white, he would still be alive. The evidence is overwhelming: cops disproportionately target African Americans. Most of those interactions are just offensive and degrading. The black American knows why they were targeted, and they go on their way, angry and frustrated, and rightly so. But inevitably, the time will come when one of those interactions turns violent. I think that's what happened here. I'm a white guy who takes public transit. I jaywalk every freaking day. Number of times a cop has stopped me: 0
Originally Posted By ecdc In other words, this didn't take place in a vacuum. This article is good for the background: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/08/ferguson_protests_over_michael_brown_won_t_end_soon_the_black_community.single.html">http://www.slate.com/articles/...gle.html</a>
Originally Posted By ecdc Officer shoves reporter. "Get that camera out of my face." Reporter asks for officer's name. Officer responds, "Go f*** yourself." --Wesley Lowery of the Washington Post, on Twitter
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ Of course you don't live in Missouri. Cops here tend to be azzholes to everyone. Young white people are targeted too... especially if they are driving a car that young people typically don't drive. My wife's son (mid 20's) has been stopped numerous times by Springfield police for no real reason. He owns a Crown Victoria... not a typical car for a younger person, but he likes the passenger space and the capacity of the trunk. The V-8 engine probably doesn't hurt either. ;-) The immediate assumption seems to be that he stole it. He was stopped once in northern Missouri while displaying a temporary license... he had not yet received his plates. He showed paperwork indicating that the car had been registered, the sales tax paid and the license tags paid for. I KNOW it was all legit. He had a hard time getting to the license bureau without taking time off work, so my wife took his money and paperwork to the local license bureau and did it for him. But the cop said the document looked forged to him, and issued a ticket. The cop told him that he could dispute it, but he would have to get a certified copy of his record, and appear in local court at a later date to dispute it. There was no reasonable way he could. It would have meant a day off of work. He is a plumber and makes a decent hourly wage, but there is no vacation time. You are paid when you work. Period. It was cheaper to pay the damned fine, so he did. That is pretty typical for Missouri. Even for white people. :-(
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I would assume the report has not been completed yet... > It depends what you mean by "completed." I believe it was filed internally relatively quickly; I can't find the clip, but I did see a report to that effect. Which is why people are calling for it to be released. Now "completed" as in "sufficiently CYA for the Ferguson PD?" That may be a different matter.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It's also possible that what was filed was only a preliminary report and something more involved is going on now - perhaps in the initial aftermath they didn't realize there was going to be such a to-do, and so the incident report was filed quickly. But I think SOMETHING was filed, and that hasn't been released. Even if it's perfunctory, not releasing it looks like they're trying to hide something and is not helping a tense situation.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<That is pretty typical for Missouri. Even for white people. :-(>> RT, was this in a fairly rural part of Missouri with very small towns and sparse population? Because this sounds exactly like a variation on the ol' speed trap scams which tiny hamlets used to prop up local coffers for decades.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<RT, was this in a fairly rural part of Missouri with very small towns and sparse population? Because this sounds exactly like a variation on the ol' speed trap scams which tiny hamlets used to prop up local coffers for decades.>> Yup... you got it!!
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://m.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/18/1315081/-A-Cops-take-on-Ferguson?detail=email">http://m.dailykos.com/story/20...il=email</a> Good article written by a cop. Note particularly the section where he talks about the standards for using lethal force.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Given the behavior of the Ferguson PD towards journalist and peaceful protesters since last week, I have little reason to doubt the truthfulness of the following article: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.salon.com/2014/08/12/eyewitness_to_michael_brown_killing_says_teen_held_up_his_hands_pled_for_his_life/">http://www.salon.com/2014/08/1...is_life/</a> <> As the hard-luck suburb that he once called home descends into open conflict between citizens and police, an eyewitness to the killing of Michael Brown is now sharing his recollection of how the unarmed 18-year-old was shot by a still-unknown Ferguson cop. “Get the fuck on the sidewalk!” is what the officer who killed Brown said to him 20 minutes before he died, according to Dorian Johnson, an eyewitness who says he was with Brown when the incident occurred. At the time, Brown and Johnson were walking on the side of the road, heading home, Johnson says. According to Johnson, Brown responded by refusing to step to the sidewalk, telling the cop that it was unnecessary because they were almost home. Brown and Johnson continued on their way, but the officer reportedly slammed his brakes and backed up his car in order to confront them. The officer then said something along the lines of “What’d you say?” Johnson claims, before he slammed his car door into the adjacent Brown and then grabbed him by the neck. “I could see the muscles in his forearm,” Johnson said. “Mike was trying to get away from being choked.” Johnson says what happened next differs from the story the Ferguson police department has told, in which Brown was shot while trying to wrestle the officer’s gun away from him. “They’re not wrestling so much as his arm went from his throat to now clenched on his shirt,” Johnson said. “It’s like tug of war. He’s trying to pull him in. He’s pulling away, that’s when I heard, ‘I’m gonna shoot you.’” The next thing he knew, Johnson says, the cop had unholstered his weapon, pointed it at Brown, and pulled the trigger. Johnson claims the officer was still holding Brown “until the gun went off.” The two boys then fled for safety, Johnson says. Johnson hid behind some nearby cars, while Brown kept running. Johnson says Brown had passed about three cars before he was shot again, this time in the back. After being shot in the back, Johnson says, Brown turned around to face the policeman with his hands up. “I don’t have a gun! Stop shooting!” he exclaimed. The cop responded by firing several more bullets into Brown, after which he collapsed to the ground in a fetal position. “After seeing my friend get gunned down, my body just ran,” Johnson says. He eventually made it to his apartment, where he collected himself and confirmed that he had not been shot. When he left his apartment five minutes later, he claims, he saw Brown, dead, lying in the middle of the street. Johnson has offered his testimony to the Ferguson police, his attorney and former St. Louis Mayor Freeman Bosley says, but was rejected. “They didn’t even want to talk to him,” said Bosley. “They don’t want the facts. What they want is to justify what happened … what they are trying to do now is justify what happened instead of trying to point out the wrong.” <> The Ferguson PD is rife with rampant racism and an arrogant elitist attitude that they're not simply above the law, they *are* the law. And Ferguson PD is but a mere symptom of a growing trend across the nation involving other police departments and their militarized attitude towards the municipalities they serve.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The problem with that is according to the autopsy there WAS no shot in the back. I have no doubt Johnson is recounting things the way he honestly remembers them, but eye-witness accounts are typically unreliable. That why I look for further evidence to judge the situation. The lack of a shot in the back doesn't make the shooting just if Brown was far enough away to pose no danger to the cop.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan At an MLB baseball game earlier this summer, I witnessed something that was really bothersome. One of the fans always has a drum in the stands, used to cheer on their team or spook opposing pitchers. After the game, this fan beats the drum as he leaves the stadium, win or lose, chanting the team name. Sometimes others join in as they head to the parking lot. A uniformed cop was apparently annoyed by the drum. He said to the fan "That's enough, game's over." The fan scoffed and walked off and began hitting the drum as always. They cop was obviously furious. He walked quickly into the fan's path and said, "I said, the game is over. Put it away." The fan walked around him and began hitting the drum again and the cop grabbed him, slammed him into the wall and cuffed him. Now, was it wise to disobey this cop's orders? No. But what possible law, in a sports stadium, could this cop be upholding? None I can think of. This was a macho power play between two guys, one of whom had a badge, so he was able to slam his opponent into a wall and cuff him. The fan being cuffed kept saying "What am I charged with? Why are you arresting me?" The cop did not answer. I am reasonably sure no charges were filed, unless the cop decided to slap him with disorderly conduct or resisting arrest or something. Our tax dollars at work. But from where I stood, this was a power play, nothing to do with public safety. And I suspect the eventual trial (if there is one) in this Ferguson case may reveal something of that sort. Cops don't get to shoot people for mouthing off. Or at least, they shouldn't be able to.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<But one bullet could have missed Brown, and he turned to give up.>> That is certainly possible but not what the eyewitness reported. <<After being shot in the back, Johnson says, Brown turned around to face the policeman with his hands up. “I don’t have a gun! Stop shooting!” he exclaimed.>>
Originally Posted By Tikiduck That baseball incident is a classic example of police abusing authority. Regarding Ferguson, did this cop have a tazer, and if so, why was it not used instead of lethal force? Bottom line, too many power drunk cops.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip At this point I just don't know if the shooting was just or not. Going by typical Missouri cop behavior I would say it is not. But based on just the facts known about this incident I don't know that any impartial person could come to a decision yet.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Well, the recent St. Louis shooting/killing was captured on a cell phone and it looks like cold blooded murder to me. <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://thefreethoughtproject.com/cell-phone-video-emerges-refutes-st-louis-cops-version-shooting/">http://thefreethoughtproject.c...hooting/</a>
Originally Posted By skinnerbox We're in agreement on this one, RT. Absolutely sickening! WTF is wrong with law enforcement purposefully engaging in what my BIL calls "SBC": Suicide By Cop He teaches courses at the academy on how to avoid these types of situations. Really cool real time interactive video on giant screens where you have to make split-second decisions with role-playing actors attempting to push your buttons in order for you to shoot them. He told me that every cop needs this training, because as an officer, you will encounter the SBC situation several times over the course of your career. Unbelievable that we have police deliberately choosing to shoot individuals who are mentally unstable. And it makes me wonder if this had been a geriatric white male with dementia, whether or not the officer would have even bothered to pull out his gun.
