Originally Posted By RoadTrip You never look at the details do you? It is pretty clear that the only rights being violated here were the student's rights. <<For years, local citizens in London had complained that members of the high school coaching staff had been engaged in conduct which breached the First Amendment wall of separation between church and state. During discovery depositions held in the last two weeks, Head Coach David Daubenmire admitted to leading the football team in the Lord's Prayer after games, to passing out a scriptural verse to team members, to allowing ministers to lead the team in prayer, and to the use of Bible stories as a part of certain team meetings. Daubenmire denied having engaged in such misconduct after November 1997, though witnesses told the ACLU that such conducted persisted into the fall of 1998. London High School is a public school. Since 1963, the United States Supreme Court has held that public school employees may not engage students in religious activities without violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.>>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<You have a real fetish about homosexuals, don't you?>> You have a real fetish about homosexuals, don't you?
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Oops... I hate when the brain checks out on copy/paste. The item quoted should have been: <<But... the kicker RoadTrip in all this. If the football coach wanted to teach his kids how to lube up for gay sex before the game, the ACLU would support his right to free speech.>> You have a real fetish about homosexuals, don't you?
Originally Posted By Beaumandy << No, it isn't Beau. You can practice your religion in the places where that is appropriate. >> STOP!!!! Dabob, you just made my case why as a fan of traditional America and the founders you defending the ACLU is so wrong. Where do you or anyone get off telling me where a good or " appropriate " place is to practice my religion?? Last time I checked, the first ammendment was about the freedom of religion and had no sick, twisted, liberal clause about WHERE or WHEN to worship. You think the founders of this nation would buy into your worship only at " church or at home " theory? They would be disgusted at how sick the nation has become. ( liberalism ) << I didn't think you could give an example of how the ACLU had ever prevented anyone from practicing his religion. This confirms it. Thank you.>> I gave you several. But what is funny Dabob, is that you, a smart guy in my opinion who I respect for some reason...just told me religion was ONLY to happen at home or Church, then in the same breath you tell me the ACLU has never prevented anyone from practing their religion. Check mate.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<During discovery depositions held in the last two weeks, Head Coach David Daubenmire admitted to leading the football team in the Lord's Prayer after games, to passing out a scriptural verse to team members, to allowing ministers to lead the team in prayer, and to the use of Bible stories as a part of certain team meetings. Daubenmire denied having engaged in such misconduct after November 1997, though witnesses told the ACLU that such conducted persisted into the fall of 1998.>> RoadTrip... reread this a few times and you will get the creepy feeling that we are in Communist Russia of Facist Iran where they kill Christians. This is what the ACLU has brought us regarding religion. If you can tell me they have not made it hard to have freedom of religion after the evidence I have put up you are either ignorant to realitiy or your not being honest in this debate. Throw in the way the ACLU attacks family values and parental rights to raise good kids and you have an enemy of America that needs to be stopped and fought. Finally, how does giving kids bible verses before a football game HURT them? The ACLU defends child rapists in NAMBLA though, but hey.. the ACLU is great!!
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Doesn't the ACLU support NAMBLA > the organization for men to learn how to better molest little boys? Is that good for our tax dollars to be paying for an organization that supports attacking our children?
Originally Posted By cape cod joe I really don't care about the religion at all but I DO care about our children not being molesting. Maybe it's just me?
Originally Posted By cape cod joe We're all set to have a little family birthday party for our son Brad, who is 11 today so I really don't think much for the horrifying un-American organization that we USED to love so much back in the sixties. It WAS great but alas has turned horrifyingly bad.
Originally Posted By Beaumandy Was the ACLU ever great Joe? Seems to me their founder had communism and attacking the family unit as his goal all along. Happy B-day brad! Get him a cool dartboard and put Teddy Kennedy's grill on it as a target. LOL " I would rather hunt with Dick than ride with Ted " - Sticker found on Beaumandys SUV -
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<RoadTrip... reread this a few times and you will get the creepy feeling that we are in Communist Russia of Facist Iran where they kill Christians.>> No I don't. No student should have to participate in prayer sessions or listen to bible stories just because they want to play football. Just as no one should be forced to play football just because they want to go to church. <<The ACLU defends child rapists in NAMBLA though, but hey.. the ACLU is great!!>> That is really stretching the court case they took on. They in no way were defending NAMBLA or what it advocated. Just NAMBLA's right to free speech. Even so it was a bad call in my opinion, and I'm sure the ACLU wish they had never taken it on.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe DW just took Brad and Rachel by the Kennedy compound today and played tourist as we have carpeting (wall to wall) half a mill tourists this week. The office was dead today so I told Diane to stay home. She just walked by and said to say thanks to you for the happy bday and she laughed with the Teddy comment. Luckily and intentionally we stay home most nights with the OUI's here> many as this sand spit is BORING!!!!!!!! Yes the ACLU was a great organization in the "old days" We were all freedom fighters with the whole world seemingly with the epicenter at the Haight as in Haight Ashbury sp? But NOW alas ........
Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<No I don't. No student should have to participate in prayer sessions or listen to bible stories just because they want to play football. Just as no one should be forced to play football just because they want to go to church.>> Did any of the players complain RT? I also find it hard to believe that the coach FORCED anyone to pray with the group. I will ask this again. How does having kids pray before a football game HURT them. Don't dodge the question either please.
Originally Posted By cape cod joe Thanks for the fairness RT! on nambla as that is like giving the neo-nazis free speech.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Did any of the players complain RT?>> Yes Beau, they apparently did: <<For years, local citizens in London had complained that members of the high school coaching staff had been engaged in conduct which breached the First Amendment wall of separation between church and state. >> <<I will ask this again. How does having kids pray before a football game HURT them.>> Suppose the coach was Islamic and was asking the players to pray to Allah. Woud you see something wrong with that?? Same thing holds here -- just a different religion.
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Originally Posted By Beaumandy <<Did any of the players complain RT?>> Yes Beau, they apparently did: >> If so I would like to see where. I would also like to see evidence that the coach FORCED the kids to pray. The ACLU has a lot of money. They can win a lawsuit like this by simply suing a poor schoold district who can't afford to defend themselves. I guarantee you 99% of the people involved with that football team had no problem with a pre game prayer.
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Originally Posted By Beaumandy What facts? The ACLU can sue anyone they want because they have the money to do it.. they MAKE money by suing people. They also deny people the right to practice their religion how and where they want.....unless your a Muslim who might be a terrorist... then they defend your right to do whatever you want.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 << No, it isn't Beau. You can practice your religion in the places where that is appropriate. >> <STOP!!!! Dabob, you just made my case why as a fan of traditional America and the founders you defending the ACLU is so wrong. Where do you or anyone get off telling me where a good or " appropriate " place is to practice my religion??> It's not me, Beau. It's the constitution. And you're trying to move the goalposts. You said the ACLU tried to keep people from practicing their religion. But that's not true. In the case of the school, RoadTrip nailed you. Both in terms of people complaining of coersion, and in the question: would you be okay with it if it was a Muslim football coach who insisted everyone pray to Allah. Schools are not religious institutions (except, of course, religious schools). But public schools are not. They have students of all religions. << I didn't think you could give an example of how the ACLU had ever prevented anyone from practicing his religion. This confirms it. Thank you.>> <I gave you several.> You gave me no good examples at all. In none of those cases was anyone stopped from practicing their religion. <But what is funny Dabob, is that you, a smart guy in my opinion who I respect for some reason...just told me religion was ONLY to happen at home or Church, then in the same breath you tell me the ACLU has never prevented anyone from practing their religion. Check mate. > Oh please. One can arguably practice one's religion 24/7, all the time, just by the way one lives his life. Neither the ACLU nor anyone else can do anything about that. However, when one moves into the public sphere, which includes all religions, then, yes, appropriateness becomes an issue. I have no problem with Jehovah's Witnesses worshipping in their own churches. I DO have a problem with them coming into my home and trying to convert me. I'd also have a problem with them proslytising in the schools. See the difference?
