Originally Posted By leemac <<Abercrombie and Fitch; that's a joke, right? A&F is nothing but Old Navy with a big advertising budget.>> Showing your age Trippy. A&F is an incredible business. No doubt that The Limited are kicking themselves for spinning it off too early. The product is well-made and hugely popular. They are also becoming a vertically integrated retailer with the younger-skewed Hollister and the newer older RUEHL No.925. My entire wardrobe is either Banana Republic or A&F/RUEHL. It looks good (although I probably skew a little old for A&F's target audience I'm the right build) and lasts. You can dismiss A&F as a marketing gimmick but the sales per sq foot are enviable for just about every retailer.
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<Four Season's Hotels, Lexus, Acura, and Harley Davidson>> How many Americans have ever spent money on one of those brands? I would guess 5-10% at most. Disney can not make any money targeting that small an audience.>> Less than that I would suggest. It is all about perceptions. I drive Mercedes. Always have and always will. Love the cars. Is that a rational thought? No idea. Lexus may be better in every comparison but I'm a Merc fan through and through. I'm fussy about my hotels too but Four Seasons doesn't work for me. Too stuffy. Give me a Conrad or Westin/W any day (as I type this in my Westin hotel in WA!). Arguably Indian was a better marquee than H-D and it is coming back. WDW is a totally different beast. They are a vertically integrated offering. You want 5* luxury and spa treatments? Try the Grand. you want $49 a night for four people? Love Pop Century. The entire resort is geared to cater for everyone. To suggest it is merely Macy's dismisses how complex their business really is.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<<Abercrombie and Fitch; that's a joke, right? A&F is nothing but Old Navy with a big advertising budget.>> Showing your age Trippy. A&F is an incredible business. No doubt that The Limited are kicking themselves for spinning it off too early. The product is well-made and hugely popular. They are also becoming a vertically integrated retailer with the younger-skewed Hollister>> Yeah, I'm old. My daughter bought her niece a couple of things from Hollister for Christmas. She said it was really the latest thing for Jr High - High School Students. Still looked like Old Navy to me. A store my wife currently prefers is Coldwater Creek. Is that a nice place or a Wal-Mart wannabe? I really have no clue.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ Personally, I wear primarily Dockers or LL Bean stuff. It looks decent (I think), you can get it online and it doesn't cost much. What more could you want?? LOL
Originally Posted By mrichmondj I don't think Walt Disney ever envisioned Disneyland as a playground exclusively for the upper middle class. So why do we describe that as an ideal? What does it mean to be in the upper middle class - is it exclusively the possession of name brand things and status symbols? And based upon my recent visits to WDW, there are certainly an awful lot of people visiting the parks who are far from being in the upper class of anything. There were certainly lots of people pretending to be upper class, and I'm sure they have mounds of credit card debt to keep up that charade. Just like there are lots of people who shop at Saks and Nordstrom courtesy of Mastercard. And plenty of people who buy their BMWs on their home equity line of credit. I see these same people as the ones who would like for Disney to follow the same business model that they follow in their personal finances -- essentially pile on the bling and high-end features by racking up enormous debts that can't be paid off. I, personally, don't like that business model. However, I fall into the small minority of Americans that saves money, has no debt, and shops at Wal-Mart to keep expenses low. I could write a check for a 3 BMWs tomorrow, but I'd rather drive my 4 year old Chevrolet that is paid off.
Originally Posted By mickey_ring The competition seems to be in bad shape too. Check out Mike Thomas' column about Universal in the Orlando Sentinel. www.orlandosentinel.com/business/custom/tourism/orl-miket0306dec03,0,6862072.column?coll=orl-business-promos-tourism
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Let me chime in as I just got back today from WDW after a five day stay. I think this discussion is much like the "new" Pirates ride. If you were someone who has ridden Pirates in the past then probably the only things your going to notice as the Davy Jones special effects and the three Captain Jack Sparrow figures. OK and maybe the sound track. But those of us who are Disney "freaks" know that the entire attraction was repainted and upgraded. Some of the pirate animatroics have been upgraded so that they are much more smoother. The attraction has been completely overhauled keeping elements of the past as well as some new additions. Much the same as the Disney Company. Sure anyone of us can walk around the parks and seem some scratched paint, light bulbs out etc. But overall the entire place looks great. Lets look at what Disney is doing well. How about IASW. The attraction looks incredible! The Castle looks incredible. The lighting effects on the Castle are incredible. I could spend a lot of time describing the great things in each park but let me move on. Downtown Disney looks great! Absolutely fantastic. All new lights that although look "retro" each bulb contains several LED bulbs so that they are cool to the touch. NOW thats state of the art! If only I could find LED christmas lights in any store. I also visited WL, AKL, YC,BC and BW. I can tell you that the Deluxe Hotels are being extremely well maintained. They look great. Now for some behind the scene things the Disney Company is doing. Last year the Disney Company completely upgraded their phone systems with state of the art networks for the Crusie line as well as putting in at least two new Resevation Desks. This has greatly improved a guests experience when contacting Disney by decreasing hold times and creating a more seamless resevation experience. I have already posted here how a buddy of mine who works for Disney created a touch screen interface for running Everest. Disney is improving. They really accomplishing some great things both infront of and behind the scenes. Disney is cutting edge. I saw so many small girls dressed as Princesses during this visit. Disney continues to inspire those of us who grew up with Disney as well as the future generations. Disney Magic is alive.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Toyota, Honda, Starbucks and Apple are not significantly better than their competition and are priced accordingly< Toyota is not better than it's competitors ??????? You mean like Chevy and Ford....the Camry is not better than an Impala of whatever other crapola is rolling out of GNM land ? Please. As for Starbucks - they meet very high customer expectations, so how are they not better than competition ? Apple ipods don't rule the MP 3 world ? Name me a competitor with 5% of their sales in that category. As for A&F - $18 stock in 2004 is $65 stock today -- how is that not successful in a market where competitors are closing shop. Old Navy is like the old Army surplus stores of our day.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Nordstrom... I'll give you. Saks... I'll give you. Von Mauer... I'll give you (local to MN and IA -- you've probably never seen it). < we have Vom Maur's here also, but the only people who shop there are old ladies..yuck. I want my Marshall Field's back - and Macy's needs to get the heck out of town -- taking a beating here this Christmas...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <<<Four Season's Hotels, Lexus, Acura, and Harley Davidson>> How many Americans have ever spent money on one of those brands? I would guess 5-10% at most. < include Honda / Toyota & Starbucks as I have defended above and that % would be more like 99%. The high ends cater to the same crowd as the high end restaurants , collectibles and concierge level at WDW -- need to cater to all.... and please do not tell me GM and Ford compete with Toyota and Honda.....resale values of the cars 3 years in alone....assuming that GM car is still running.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^ and I grew up a GM guy...so it pains me to say that - but will never own another, nor will I ever sell my '69 Camaro....my summer toy...
Originally Posted By vbdad55 < essentially pile on the bling and high-end features by racking up enormous debts that can't be paid off. I, personally, don't like that business model. However, I fall into the small minority of Americans that saves money, has no debt, and shops at Wal-Mart to keep expenses low. I could write a check for a 3 BMWs tomorrow, but I'd rather drive my 4 year old Chevrolet that is paid off< making the assumption people who drive BMW's as an example are all debt ridden is another misconception. Do some people live beyond their means, yes, but I'll take the resale value retainment of my BMW over any Chevy ( including corvette in first 5 years)- and since I pay cash for mine as you obviously have done for yours, the value of my purchase has retained more of it's original value....so let's be careful about throwing stones .. btw, if you want to write one of those checks for the 08 M3 I want...I'll gladly accept. Meanwhile I'll take the return on trade in of my 335i when the time is right over the Chevy investment. Owned plenty of GM over the years and took many baths on resale value...... as for WalMart -- I shop target and love it, I would sooner go to the Pooh playground than Walmart due to the upkeep of their stores as well as their business practices....but that is why this is America....to each his own...but let's not try and stereotype any one group, usually find many people don't fit any stereotype. As for WDW i don;t want them in the business model you mention either, however nor do I expect them to deliver something like the Poo Playground to me...I would seriously rather have the grassy space than a piece of low quality entertainment at a place that should be more than a few cuts above that...everything doesn't have to be potc or Everest (for new) - but NOTHING should be like that playground either.
Originally Posted By DLFAN1979 ""How about IASW. The attraction looks incredible!"" Which is, at 18mos, ALREADY falling apart. Almost all lights in the facade are burnt out, the clock face has stopped moving, and there are already dolls out for rehab. WDI REALLY got ripped off on this one. And i can tell you you for 100% SURE that Pirates is NOT and WAS NOT done correctly. WDI totally got shafted on the Pirate rehab. "" All new lights that although look "retro" each bulb contains several LED bulbs so that they are cool to the touch. "" So they can spend money on LED lights at a SHOPPING complex but NOT for Main Street and Small World? umm, yeeeeeeaaaaaaa...............
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Which explains the great success of DVC. By owning in DVC you can pay a mid level price for a mid-level to upper mid-level product (at least as far as lodging goes). Being a DVC owner is the ONLY way you can truly get what you are paying for.>> That's absolutely true, Trippy. Of course, for the most part, WDW didn't offer large accomodations with kitchens (such as DVC provides) before it got in the timeshare business. And DVC has only existed for 15 years, with the vast majority of members having bought in the last 7-8 years. I do wonder how they're going to feel about their 43 years of magical WDW vacations if TWDC doesn't substantially change its model on reinvesting in its parks. When WDW hit its nadir, IMHO, in the 2000-2003 period, I cut my trips there in half ... opting for Las Vegas, cruises, Alaska, the Grand Canyon, NYC and, yes, DL, instead. But I a have no 'investment' in WDW beyond my stock in the parent company. I have seen many positive changes in the past two years, which I why I am back to my old visiting pattern. But that doesn't mean I don't fully realize how bad most WDW execs are.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "So they can spend money on LED lights at a SHOPPING complex but NOT for Main Street and Small World?" Actually, I prefer that they use real bulbs on Main Street and Small World. Although LED are much more efficient and don't heat up, they also put out a much purer light. This means that instead of that warm yellow glow coming out of the bulbs on Main Street, we would get that garish perfectly white (almost hinting at blue) white that makes everything look bad. Although this is no excuse to not keep up with maintainence, it is a reasonable excuse to not change the type of fixtures in existing areas. In DTD, however, the overall feel is much more modern, so I have no problem with the modern lighting. Even in IASW, where there isn't a specific time period, the attraction just seems to be better suited to the more colorful traditional lights than the pure single color LEDs.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 I love it when Leemac drops back (also love to rhyme!) ... well, pip,pip and let's get to his jolly post .. <<It looks good (although I probably skew a little old for A&F's target audience I'm the right build) and lasts.>> Glad to hear you're keeping in shape. I recently spent some time in Aruba with some of your countrymen and they are starting to become American-sized. Not good. <<Less than that I would suggest. It is all about perceptions. I drive Mercedes. Always have and always will. Love the cars. Is that a rational thought? No idea. Lexus may be better in every comparison but I'm a Merc fan through and through.>> Don't want to scare you, but I am too! I love my Mercedes. One of the best cars I've owned by far. I also am loyal to Honda as they have never let me down yet, either. I am intrigued by Lexus, but if I were to get one it would have to replace my Honda, not my Benz. <<I'm fussy about my hotels too but Four Seasons doesn't work for me. Too stuffy. >> Too stuffy ... FOR YOU?!?!??! ;-) <<WDW is a totally different beast. They are a vertically integrated offering. You want 5* luxury and spa treatments? Try the Grand. you want $49 a night for four people? Love Pop Century. The entire resort is geared to cater for everyone. To suggest it is merely Macy's dismisses how complex their business really is.>> Nope. I understand how complex they'd like to think their business is. And maybe in 1994 there was a huge difference from the GF to the All Stars. But the constant dumbing down of the product has lowered the quality across the board and WDW continues to price the GF as a true 5-star resort when it isn't comparable to almost any Ritz Carlton or Four Seasons when it comes to the important things like cleanliness, upkeep and guest service. Why anyone would choose it over the Ritz Grande Lakes is beyond me ... some Disney fixation I guess. In an effort to streamline their business, WDW has treated all its resorts in a very similar fashion. I have gotten far better service at the WL, PO and,yes, even Pop Century than I have at GF. That should NEVER, EVER happen. I recall Al Lutz writing about Paul Pressler 5-6 years ago not understanding why the GF had to be treated differently than the values. Now, whether that was true I don't know ... I do know that the GF doesn't offer a 5-star experience but charges a 5-star price. When I stayed there, I would have said I had 4 star accomodations and amenities and 2 star service. No ... the Macy's analogy is quite right. Disney, like Macy's, want to be all things to all people but they want to do it in most inexpensive, homogenized way possible. It shows.
Originally Posted By kennect Lee, You are paying way too much on your clothing...I love the stores you shop but still their quality isn't any higher than many other lower class retailers...Then maybe again your hitting their outlet stores...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<There were certainly lots of people pretending to be upper class, and I'm sure they have mounds of credit card debt to keep up that charade. Just like there are lots of people who shop at Saks and Nordstrom courtesy of Mastercard. And plenty of people who buy their BMWs on their home equity line of credit.>> While I believe in fiscal responsibility, I also don't tell other folks how to live their lives and manage their finances. If our President and Congress have no problem putting our great-great-great grandchildren in hock for trillions of dollars, I am not going to begrudge my neighbor owing thousands on credit while going to WDW four times a year!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<and please do not tell me GM and Ford compete with Toyota and Honda.....resale values of the cars 3 years in alone....assuming that GM car is still running.>> I wonder if GM and Ford will even exist in a decade. They've had 25 years to change the way they do business and they just have never seen all the things they do wrong. Also, VBDAD, did you notice I didn't take a shot at mrichmondj for shopping at WalMart? ... I thought it, but I didn't post it!
Originally Posted By kennect You know I have realized something this evening that is very dissapointing to have to read here...It seems that most of these threads like this end up coming down to a few members here bragging about how much money they have to spend...That is sickening to me...Great, you've got the bucks to spend...Go spread that news somewhere else on a financial forum where someone will care...Disney may not be what it has been in Florida but for the moment I am sick and tired of reading posts from people trying to out do someone else about what they have spend...Talk about a turn off for most any normal person that might visit this site in regards to WDW...Well, this type of talk is one...
