Originally Posted By TomSawyer Let's not forget that the New Testament still says that slavery is a-okay and that slaves should obey their masters, and that women should shut up in church and submit to their husbands. Not up to modern standards.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Sorry, i'm not going to argue scripture and doctrine interpretations with you.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan Yes, there are some terrible things done in the name of religion. But there are also some wonderful acts of kindness and humanity inspired by it as well. Critics of religion are eager to recognize the former but also tend to explain away the latter. "You don't NEED religion to do good works" is the usual line. And yes, that's very true. I have no idea, no one knows, how much anyone is truly driven by genuine faith in the choices and decisions they make and how much of it merely serves as justification for what they would do anyway. But I doubt that if religion were suddenly somehow erased from the planet, humans wouldn't come up with some other justification and "reason" for why we need to slaughter and persecute one another. God or no, violence and hate of 'the other' sure seems hard-wired into human DNA.
Originally Posted By ecdc RE: post 23. I agree completely. I'm not just looking for a chance to bash religion. But isn't the point that religion is supposed to be better? It's supposed to be this ideal that people live up to? And instead, the bar is "Well we do some good stuff, too!" You're only supposed to do the good stuff! All I expect is that religious people own their bad stuff. Don't tell me it's not you so it's not your problem. If you're Catholic, the abuse scandal is your problem. If you don't own it and reckon with it, it won't be fixed. Just because it's a religion, you don't get to just own the good and then tell me there really is no bad because hey, we just define things however we want. If Mormons, for example, want to be the religion of anti-alcohol and anti-gay marriage and no R-rated movies (absolutely along with be a good neighbor and donate to charity and all that stuff), that's great. Truly. But don't tell me you're also a grand religion of peace when your leaders rarely speak out for peace and, in fact, endorse war. Own who you are, don't twist definitions into pretzels.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>All I expect is that religious people own their bad stuff.<< I'm with you on that. I just worry that sometimes we don't recognize that various offshoots and religious sects come up with their own crazy "rulebook" and cannot fairly be lumped in with the millions of Muslims who are able to go through life not killing and beheading, and do not support or condone these things. And it happens very easily with islamic religions. I'm just trying to wave the caution flag a bit. Look at the issue of race in this country. While a majority of white people today are not racists, enough are that we could spend all our waking hours telling anyone who will listen that THEY (racist white people) are not US (non-racist white people). Instead, while we may speak out where we can, and vote of course, basically you have to go through life just not being a racist and hope that is powerful enough to create a culture shift. Most Muslims aren't blood-thirsty zealots, and when shocking atrocities like the killing of this journalist happen, we have to not be tempted to blame a specific religion more than its fair share in this crime.
Originally Posted By ecdc I'm with you. And it's pretty complex in Islam as well. I guess what I'm saying is that in order for religion to condemn the bad, they inherently have to be more intellectual and moderate and acknowledge a degree of flaws in their past and in their sacred texts. A lot of religions refuse to do that. I'm totally on board with Christians who stand up and say, "My faith makes me a better person, and I absolutely believe Jesus died for my sins, but there's terrible stuff in the Bible and I want no part of it." There's a lot of Christians who do that, and I really think it's great. But there's also tons of Christians who more or less say all that terrible stuff isn't really terrible and they earn gold medals in mental gymnastics to insist that their Bible doesn't have a thing in it that's the least bit problematic for living in the 21st century. When people say "they're perverting religion," that's because religion offers plenty of fodder to easily pervert. When the Bible tells stories of a God who is jealous and proud of it, and who wipes out tons of people and curses their descendants for generations, is the response, "That's wrong and that's not God," or is it, "Oh, yeah, well God used to be like that but we have the New Testament now! Praise Christ!"
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Personally, I think religion provides the perfect vehicle for subhuman behavior. Interpretations be damned, what is written is written, with the literal and orthodox passages frequently being the most violent. Throw in some demented priests and imams with a little charisma and strong powers of persuasion and whole civilizations are corrupted. Atheism is not exempt, but it is neutral. There are no holy texts that can be used as literal references. Nobody acts out violence with more self righteousness than when they are under the spell of religion. All of the "good Muslims" are, in their silence, no better than the "good" citizens of Germany who lived in towns next to concentration camps while ignoring the horrors they were fully aware of.
Originally Posted By Mr X "Sorry, i'm not going to argue scripture and doctrine interpretations with you." Why not? Afraid you'll lose? Besides, who's interpreting? I gave you direct quotes by the big man himself - unless you want to claim he was lying, you've got nothing to argue against. You're just not very familiar with your own sacred texts. Simple as that.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip How did this go from a thread about a radical Islamic terrorist atrocity to another Mormon bashing thread? Oh wait, I know... this is LP!!
Originally Posted By Tikiduck Umm, because a Mormon came in defending Islam as a religion of peace? You know, the one that punishes apostasy with death, stones women, and severs the heads of innocent journalists.
Originally Posted By Mr X Actually, it is. Unless you are trying to imply that Jesus is a liar, I don't really see where you have a leg to stand on up against his own, plain as day quotes. And you know full well that plenty of fundies USE those statements as evidence that it's still a-okay to engage in the sport of gay bashing, so own it, or don't, but don't bother talking "new covenant" unless you're prepared to discuss how Jesus was a liar. Or wrong. Or both.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Uh, how about man's recording of events reflected the thoughts of the time and is not entirely accurate?
Originally Posted By Mr X That would imply the bible is not infallible. Not a can of worms you'd want to open up if you ask me (not that I disagree with that!).
Originally Posted By TomSawyer That's one thing that Islam has going for it - the Koran is written and read in the same language that it was originally written in, and no translation of the Koran is considered canonical. Unfortunately, though, we can't really understand what the old Iron Age or Bronze Age words meant in the context of the time that they were written. We don't have the same cultural reference points. We don't even have the same cultural reference points as the early 19th Century when the Book of Mormon was written. I don't think that there is any such thing as a religion of peace with the possible exception of something like Buddhism that teaches the oneness of everything rather than the emphasizing the differences between people. You can't talk about peace out of one side of your mouth while getting titillated by the passages of how God will express his wrath against who oppose him. This violence is in the DNA of the big three monotheistic religions. This emphasis of difference is what kills.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan The murderers who killed James Foley also demanded a $100 million ransom in exchange for his release. If they were driven purely by religious zeal, there would have been no ransom demand. It's tempting to blame this all on religious fanaticism, but clearly these ISIS clowns have a history of getting payoffs in exchange for hostages (France paid them in the past).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip France... 75 years of rolling over. It is a beautiful country and I would LOVE to visit. But they don't seem to have much of a backbone... makes it tough for other countries when they cough up the dough. Ransom is a major source of funds for ISIS.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox British intelligence now believes the terrorist who did the beheading might be this guy: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576695/Hip-hop-jihadist-claims-kidnapped-tortured-robbed-fellow-Islamists.html">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...sts.html</a> <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://nypost.com/2014/08/23/british-rapper-a-suspect-in-journalists-beheading-by-isis/">http://nypost.com/2014/08/23/b...by-isis/</a>
Originally Posted By mrkthompsn Break time: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyr0bSOkRSWfdTExqZPLYAqZYA08aKl2C&app=desktop
Originally Posted By skinnerbox Women's Rights Activist Tortured and Executed by ISIS: <a target="blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/09/25/1332478/-Women-s-Rights-Activist-tortured-and-executed-by-ISIS">http://www.dailykos.com/story/...-by-ISIS</a> <> Outrage upon outrage. Here's the latest scoop from the War Against Women, ISIS-style: "An Iraqi lawyer known for her work promoting women’s rights has been killed by Islamic State fighters, the head of the United Nations human rights office said on Thursday, continuing a pattern of attacks on professional women." "The lawyer, Sameera Salih Ali al-Nuaimy, was seized from her home by Islamic State fighters last week and tortured for several days before a masked firing squad executed her in public on Monday, Zeid Ra’ad al-Hussein, the United Nations human rights commissioner, said in a statement." The New York Times brings us this grisly report of yet another outrageous act of barbarism by the deranged Islamist mobsters known as ISIS. Women (and their children) often bear the brunt of military hostilities, but the present situation is particularly vicious. "United Nations monitors in Iraq have received numerous reports of executions of women by Islamic State gunmen, some after perfunctory trials, the organization said. 'Educated, professional women seem to be particularly at risk,' it added." "These killings, together with abductions and the enslavement of women and children, illustrate the 'utterly poisonous nature' of the extremist group, Mr. Zeid said, drawing attention to the plight of hundreds of women and girls of the Yazidi religious minority and other ethnic and religious groups sold into slavery, raped or forced into marriage after the group overran large areas of northern Iraq." So, there you have it. Women who dare to venture out of the veil, out of the kitchen, out of enslavement are targeted and murdered by the men who would enslave them. It's the Neanderthal Age, déjà vu all over again. Who would have imagined that such a thing could occur in 2014? We are all Sameera Salih Ali al-Nuaimy. May her soul rest in peace. <> Not a surprise considering the same group took Yazidi women and children and buried them alive. Everyone needs to be on board in reining in these monsters. Enough with the U.S. doing the vast majority of heavy lifting. These rabid animals need to be put down now, and all nations need some skin in this game.
