Originally Posted By DVC_dad There is also the danger of taking one or two statements out of context of any given book. One must judge the whole as a whole.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<To disagree with Israel's policies, does not at all make someone racially prejudiced against the people of that nation.>> Well said, DVC.
Originally Posted By DAR <<I'm sure there are southerners who are not anti-semitic. They are probably both nice people. Of course that is an exaggeration, but in Mr. Carter's case, the stereotype is true. Stereotypes usually are based on something.>> You live West Coast right? I'm sure there are about three or four people on both coasts that don't look at those of us inbetween as being inferior to them. Quite frankly it's old and insulting.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj I'm not sure all these posts about who was there first really hold any water in the modern world. What does that mean about Native Americans in the United States? The real issue with Israel is that we support them as a Democracy, but it really isn't. It is a Jewish state. It is biased towards a minority population. It really is not different than Apartheid in South Africa. The Arab inhabitants of Israel and its occupied territories are not represented well by the Israeli government. On the flip side, the Arab world has yet to prove that it can effectively govern in any of the Arab controlled states. Islamic governments aren't serving their citizens any better than Israel serves the Arabs living within its borders. We really have no positive political choices there. I visited Jerusalem once. I was thoroughly unimpressed with the place. Sometimes I have this radical view that we should just drop an A-Bomb on Jerusalem and destroy all the religious relics there. Then all that would be left to fight over is dust and sand.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Weren't you also the one who questioned evidence regarding the holocaust?>> I did not question the evidence. I asked to know what it was. That has not been answered. I went to Wikipedia to try and get some information. It didn't give much information concerning the basis of the numbers. In fact it indicated that there is some disagreement on the total killed, with numbers ranging anywhere from 9 - 26 million. What did come as a surprise to me is that about 50% of the people killed in the holocaust were non-Jewish, including 3 million Polish Christians. The holocaust was not exclusively a Jewish horror. I'm not anti-Semitic. I'm merely trying to obtain information. If I do have any complaint about Jewish people it is the tendency of some to find an anti-Semite under every rock.
Originally Posted By Kennesaw Tom Not for nothing but it does seem like Israel is the "canary in the coal mine".
Originally Posted By jonvn "I'm sure there are about three or four people on both coasts that don't look at those of us inbetween as being inferior to them." Actually, no. I don't think there are.
Originally Posted By alexbook I haven't read the book, yet, either, but I'd like to chime in on the anti-Semitism issue. There is a tendency among some people to treat any criticism or questioning of Israeli government policy as anti-Semitism. This is not dissimilar to the tendency to treat any criticism or questioning of American government policy as anti-American. There are plenty of Jews who would agree with the following statement: "When Israel does occupy this territory deep within the West Bank, and connects the 200-or-so settlements with each other, with a road, and then prohibits the Palestinians from using that road, or in many cases even crossing the road, this perpetrates even worse instances of apartness, or apartheid, than we witnessed even in South Africa." Here is an English-language Jerusalem newspaper's message board for this subject: <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/799476.html#resp" target="_blank">http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/s pages/799476.html#resp</a> Here's an article from last year by an Israeli liberal, entitled "Apartheid Roads": <a href="http://peacenow.org.il/site/en/peace.asp?pi=195&docid=1513" target="_blank">http://peacenow.org.il/site/en /peace.asp?pi=195&docid=1513</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn "The Arab inhabitants of Israel and its occupied territories are not represented well by the Israeli government." Actually, this isn't true, either. There are Arabs in the Israeli Knesset. They'd be perfectly accepted into society there if they didn't go around bombing school busses full of children. Now that Palestine has been granted some autonomy in Gaza, it's interesting to now watch them kill each other instead of the Jews. Gee, just like in Iraq.
Originally Posted By jonvn "What did come as a surprise to me is that about 50% of the people killed in the holocaust were non-Jewish, including 3 million Polish Christians." Yes, about 12 or more million people died in the Holocaust. Six million or so of them were Jews. Assume what you say is correct, that 3 million non Jewish Poles were killed. Out of a country of many million. Now, count how many Jewish Poles were killed. That figure is 2 million. Do you know how many Polish Jews there were prior? About 2 million. They were pretty much completely wiped out. Nearly all of European Jewish history was destroyed. That is why it is considered above all else a Jewish Holocaust. This does NOT mean that others did not also suffer at the hands of the Nazis. Even unto the end of the war, the German people themselves suffered. Do you follow this? Say 2% of the Christian Polish population was killed, while 99.9% of the Jewish population was killed. (I don't know the exact figures, I picked the percents for demonstrative purposes). "If I do have any complaint about Jewish people it is the tendency of some to find an anti-Semite under every rock." That's because they are. They are under every rock, and it doesn't take a lot of looking to find one. It's just how people are. Blacks cry racism at every little thing, too, even though if you are not black, it just doesn't seem reasonable that they feel that way. But they see things that non-black people don't or are insensitive to. Just how it is.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<There is a tendency among some people to treat any criticism or questioning of Israeli government policy as anti-Semitism. This is not dissimilar to the tendency to treat any criticism or questioning of American government policy as anti-American.>> Thank you. I really don't consider myself an anti-anything except perhaps an anti-bigot. On my team at work I have a Jewish person, a Muslim and a Gay guy. I was the person responsible for hiring each of them. Anti-Semite allegations should not be made so loosely and on so little evidence.
Originally Posted By jonvn I think it is very easy to see it, and it is very easy to not notice it in yourself. There was just a study out on this very subject. People see lingering racism in everyone....but themselves: <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/12/racism.poll/index.html?section=cnn_latest" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/ 12/racism.poll/index.html?section=cnn_latest</a>
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I think it is very easy to see it, and it is very easy to not notice it in yourself. There was just a study out on this very subject. People see lingering racism in everyone....but themselves:>> I humbly suggest that you look at yourself. You seem to make more snap judgments about people based on very little evidence than anyone else on LP.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I humbly suggest that you look at yourself." I never said I didn't have to. That doesn't mean what I said earlier is not true.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad No indeed jonvn you are correct, our opinion of you has no bearing on the accuracy of your claims, however when things are said by a person who is doing damage to his or her own character, perhaphs by posting shallow insults or rediculous satements, things said by that author may not be taken seriously. Of course, it is a free LP board, and we all are at liberty to post whatever we like.
Originally Posted By jonvn "when things are said by a person who is doing damage to his or her own character" Oh baloney. People from the south have historically been racists and bigots, and I've met more than my share. It is not the least bit surprising to me that carter has shown himself to be an anti-semite.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<People from the south have historically been racists and bigots, and I've met more than my share. >> What a load of crap. I've talked to blacks who've lived in the south before moving to Minnesota and generally they felt more at home in the south. Although the economic opportunities weren't nearly as good (which is what brought them north), overall they felt more accepted in the south. Yes, the discrimination that existed in the south was certainly more blatant. But they found the discrimination in the north was much more subtle but also much more pervasive. I hate to admit it, but Minneapolis is one of the most segregated large cities in America. Yea, we are all good liberals and love the blacks. As long as they stay in the city and keep the hell out of our neighborhoods.
Originally Posted By jonvn "What a load of crap." No, it's not. That does not mean there are not bigots elsewhere, like Minnesota. "they found the discrimination in the north was much more subtle but also much more pervasive. " That's what I've seen, too. To your face, they are nice enough. Otherwise, they hate you all the same.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Hummm... interesting. The southerner is in general: Less educated Less cultured Less PC More racially divided Dumb and dumber Slower Less Economically motivated blah blah blah... Wow, I don't know why Atlanta HQ's more Fortune 500 companies than any other city.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad In general, generalizations are very poor in the debate arena, with the exception of this one. lol
