Originally Posted By leemac <<Because the original concept was stupid! I mean who comes to California to go to a theme park about California? YAWN.>> I feel like I've stepped back in time a dozen years or so but to revisit the same argument.... I'm absolutely convinced that the theme itself was not the problem - it was the execution. It was also the fact that the majority of the park was contemporaneous - it didn't transport you to a different time and place - either the past (or future) of California or even a stylized version of a California that never existed. Disney's America worked because it recreated environments that guests (by and large) couldn't have experienced at that time. That is the hook. The budget is always a convenient excuse to hide behind - but ultimately it is possible to do a park right on limited resources - HKDL is testimony to that (the bones are good there). Timur Galen didn't manage the budget effectively and Barry Braverman didn't deliver a creative experience. The fact that some innovation like Mark Sumner's Soarin' came out of that mess is even more remarkable. Now all I need is wangaroa to come and rip that to shreds and it is officially 2001 again! )
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>It was also the fact that the majority of the park was contemporaneous - it didn't transport you to a different time and place...<< That's another part of my concern with what they're doing to the park. Although they're changing the settings of the various districts to a different era than the present, they're all roughly the same time as each other (1920-1945ish). It won't be as bland of an overall experience as having everything themed to modern day, but most areas are still ending up themed to the same time as each other. On a related note, when did they switch the theme of New Orleans Square to ~1970? Until relatively recently, it had been set in the late 1800's, but the set dressings in the last few years have really skewed the area much more modern. The architecture is still very classic, but the details are appearing more and more contemporary.
Originally Posted By leemac <<EPCOT is part museum, but really more of a World's Fair.>> It is a very fine line between museum and a theme park in that instance. I think you could easily describe Spaceship Earth and World of Motion as both museum-like - they both told the history of their subject through vignettes - it just happened that you had to be in a ride vehicle to experience it. It all comes down to what I'm constantly harping on about - menu mix. Every park should have a broad mix of attractions, shows (live-action and film-based) and entertainment experiences (parades, fireworks etc.) that appeal to a broad range of guests - there is a room for high-thrills experiences providing that the park also provides family attractions. The deep sadness I feel for Cars Land is on several levels - firstly I just can't fathom how you can spend $800m on a new land with one E-ticket and two basic attractions - and specifically spend $350m on one attraction that isn't groundbreaking in terms of tech or execution (RSR). The land is well-executed - there is no doubt about that - but it is simply a lift-and-shift from the movie. Granted I can't stand either film but I'd feel the same way about a recreation of the environment from any Disney or Pixar film - it is just too literal. I've said it before and I'll say it again - the better concept was the Route 66 That Never Was - taking the great cars of the post-war age and shifting them into a psuedo-Cars setting. It added a touch of inventiveness that would have appealed to everyone - given them the Cars characters they know and love but also a setting that was original. Sadly no-one wants to gamble nearly a billion dollars these days on something new and original.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Although they're changing the settings of the various districts to a different era than the present, they're all roughly the same time as each other (1920-1945ish)>> There was one concept for BVS that I loved - but was difficult to execute - which was effectively a district under construction - literally at the start of the Golden Age. Naturally they wanted to leverage a story about Walt's arrival in Hollywood and hence we have the current incarnation - a perfect vision of a small town - a la MSUSA.
Originally Posted By FerretAfros >>The deep sadness I feel for Cars Land is on several levels - firstly I just can't fathom how you can spend $800m on a new land with one E-ticket and two basic attractions - and specifically spend $350m on one attraction that isn't groundbreaking in terms of tech or execution (RSR).<< I think that's also my biggest issue. I think what's there is very nicely executed, and a clear step up from the similar versions in other parks, but it's just not *that* much better to justify all the extra expense. TestTrack is fun; RSR is more fun, but I don't think it's twice as fun, as the price tag should indicate. It's probably even a step down from JTTCOTE, which tells an original story (to Disney at least) in a new and different way. As for the verson of Route 66 that got built, I think that will become more of an issue in years to come. What they have now is well executed to match the film, but once the novelty wears off, I think that people will see through the silly names and visual gags, and see that there's just not a lot of flexibility there. It's all sizzle and no steak.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORWEN: But getting back to The Little Mermaid attraction at the Magic Kingdom, us Cauldron girls got to ride it for the first time, yesterday, 10/13, and thought it was wonderful. The beautiful queue with plenty to do while you wait was really a nice surprise. Prince Eric's Castle is fabulous and there's even a meet and greet with Ariel in a grotto they built underneath the rock work. All in all this new Fantasyland expansion is a win-win for us!!!
Originally Posted By leemac << It's probably even a step down from JTTCOTE, which tells an original story (to Disney at least) in a new and different way.>> Have to agree with that - although I still think Journey has some major story issues (there isn't much going on before you meet the Lava Monster - those sets should have been teeming with life) and the thrill experience is a little short - it is still a better overall experience that RSR. I always thought it needed something else after your first encounter with the Lava Monster (one of my favorite AAs - when it works! - is the "chasing" Carnotaurus on CTX which would have been a cool addition here).
Originally Posted By FerretAfros If they could pull off the under-construction land effectively, that would have been really cool. It's definitely something that Disney hasn't done before, despite all of the different themes they've used through the years. It would definitely be tough to do, making it clear that it was the theme, and not actually under construction, as well as maintaining it through the years, but it would be pretty cool. Much better than arbitrarily throwing obscure character names on buildings that have a clear, strong theme on their own.
Originally Posted By leemac ^^ It would have relied on a lot of streetmosphere cast to reinforce the storyline (think carpenters, plumbers etc.) and also police safety. Sadly it was a little too left-field.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Much better than arbitrarily throwing obscure character names on buildings that have a clear, strong theme on their own.>> Sadly it is stuff like that which I really don't like on BVS - it is cheap and easy. Either create a Hollywood that never existed or be true to the time and place. I know that one proposal made more references to those early days in Hollywood with other studios but that it was nixed - so instead we get a Hollywood where the likes of Jack and Sam Warner never existed.
Originally Posted By leemac <<ORWEN: But getting back to The Little Mermaid attraction at the Magic Kingdom, us Cauldron girls got to ride it for the first time, yesterday, 10/13, and thought it was wonderful.>> My bad for the digressions! So Witches what made you think the attraction was wonderful?
Originally Posted By dagobert I'm sorry for being a little bit off topic, but in recent years there have always been rumours on European Disney sites, that ED SCA planned to add the ride at DLP. That was before Ratatouille got the green light. Since a similar ride was already part of Fantasyland during the planning phase, I always thought it could be possible that we get it as well. Maybe someone here has some informations if the rumours were true.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Since a similar ride was already part of Fantasyland during the planning phase, I always thought it could be possible that we get it as well.>> The DLP version was rather different - the execution was on a much bigger scale than DCA's version. The virtual ride-through on The Little Mermaid DVD is interesting if you haven't seen it. Personally I think that dark rides work the best when they put you in the story either as a known character's POV or a bystander - it helps to get you invested in the story rather than seeing it all unfold passively. The best example I like to tell folks about is my favorite pre-show sequence - from CTX. When Doctor Seeker looks directly into the camera and says "We're in!" you feel invested in the experience. Some people think it is a fairly hokey device but I like it a lot. This version of TLM would not fit into the existing FL pad at DLP - the site is actually quite compact (hence why it operated on multiple levels). I'd be surprised to see it there anyhow - it only went into MK as it was cheaper to build two attraction simultaneously. I doubt there will be a third incarnation. I always wished that either Pinocchio or Snow White had been dropped from the DLP opening day menu and the Beauty and the Beast show built instead - it would have added a very different experience to DLP's FL as an AA show. I've never totally bought the logic that dialogue-heavy experiences like this and Jungle Cruise wouldn't work in that market.
Originally Posted By leemac <<The DLP version was rather different - the execution was on a much bigger scale than DCA's version.>> Clumsy English as I then go on to say that it is a smaller footprint! The DLP version was grander - multiple level, full AA, lost of special effects - not a basic dark ride by any means.
Originally Posted By sjhym333 I stayed on the fence about the Fantasyland expansion. I understand what Disney is trying to accomplish with it and I know that it isn't fully finished yet, but it ended up being just as I feared. Very pretty to look a couple of C ticket attractions and not much else. I found it disappointing all in all. The Little Mermaid ride is cute but not something I would ride over and over again (though it is a great people eater). I am sure that young families will love it. I am not sure it has a broader appeal past a one time visit. I can already see that the story thing with Belle is going to have huge lines because of it's low capacity. At the end of the day I walked away thinking it was nice, but Disney could have done better. I may have felt different if the MK had gotten upgrades throughout the years but since this is the biggest thing in a long time it was kind of a shrug of the shoulder for me. I also know I am jaded, but I have spoken to several people over the past couple of days who have also done the preview and they all seem to be in the same mindset as I am.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>This version of TLM would not fit into the existing FL pad at DLP - the site is actually quite compact (hence why it operated on multiple levels). I'd be surprised to see it there anyhow - it only went into MK as it was cheaper to build two attraction simultaneously. I doubt there will be a third incarnation. <<< I've seen it on the LM DVD and it looked fantastic. I think there's a park map in one of the MS USA shops that shows Fantasyland with B&B and TLM. Rumours suggested that it could be built behind the FL train station.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I think there's a park map in one of the MS USA shops that shows Fantasyland with B&B and TLM. >> The first collectible park maps featured both attractions. You could buy that particular one. <<Rumours suggested that it could be built behind the FL train station.>> There is some BOH stuff there - that would need moving - plus the hassle of building under the berm. The problem is that the park doesn't need capacity at the moment - it isn't undercapacity so an expensive attraction like TLM isn't going to be an attractive proposition. Never say never though! I'd hope that Gas will continue to focus on the second gate.
Originally Posted By Manfried Interesting, leemac, a semi-Disney insider defending the original DCA approach, which was a flop. So what there was one good attraction. Big deal. And he denigrates what is are very successful additions to finally put the park on the map? Sounds like a Tony mouthpiece to me.
Originally Posted By leemac <<the original DCA approach, which was a flop. >> Again - I dispute that the concept was a flop - the execution was. <<And he denigrates what is are very successful additions to finally put the park on the map?>> I'm not disputing its success. It just doesn't work for me. Just because it has been popular doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm not sure I'm denigrating it either - it is just my personal opinion. <<Sounds like a Tony mouthpiece to me.>> Ha! You caught me redhanded. I give up.
Originally Posted By barboy ///The budget is always a convenient excuse to hide behind// ----especially when true......can't build a quality Disney 'full day' park with initial outlays of $800 mil even with late 1990's dollars. //// - but ultimately it is possible to do a park right on limited resources - HKDL is testimony to that/// aaahhhh, you position yourself among the few. Aside from opening day, for the most part, Hong Kongers didn't exactly come running to their 1/3 baked park. Ocean Park, with its county carnival "pack-em-up-and-move to-the- next- venue" feel rides was drawing more visitors.
