Originally Posted By leemac <<aaahhhh, you position yourself among the few. Aside from opening day, for the most part, Hong Kongers didn't exactly come running to their 1/3 baked park. Ocean Park, with its county carnival "pack-em-up-and-move to-the- next- venue" feel rides was drawing more visitors.>> OP still gets about 1m more guests annually than HKDL - although the gap is closing fast. Don't confuse the difference between a park that opened with a good structure for the future (HKDL) and one that didn't (DCA). HKDL on opening day was a very pretty park - it didn't have enough attractions - but that doesn't disguise the fact that what was there was done well for the most part. DCA is still a master planner's worst nightmare with dead-ends and poor guest circulation and that is down to the original master plan. HKDL has the tradition hub and spoke and until the expansion on the south side it had great potential. The expansion with its one exit/one entrance design will cause guest circulation issues when Mystic Manor opens next spring.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<So what there was one good attraction. Big deal.>> It's a matter of taste. The first time I visited DCA I thought there were a number of good attractions: Soarin' Grizzly River Run California Screamin' Golden Dreams Muppetvision 3-D Tough to be a Bug Winery Area/Seasons of the Vine The Sun Wheel of Death Animation Academy Hyperion Theater There were also a number of minor attractions that I found enjoyable... just like I find some of the musical groups and performers in the World Showcase at Epcot add to my day, even though they aren't major attractions. These minor attractions included: Bakery and Tortilla Factory Tours Orange Stinger I enjoyed walking around the Grizzly Peak area and the colorfulness of A Bug's Land. Replica of the California Zephyr. My main criticism of DCA 1.0 would be that the Sunshine Plaza, Hollywood Pictures Backlot and the San Francisco area all seemed oddly incomplete.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<DCA is still a master planner's worst nightmare with dead-ends and poor guest circulation>> That and Disney's Hollywood Studios in Florida. What is with that park and what were they possibly thinking?
Originally Posted By barboy ///HKDL on opening day was a very pretty park/// ABSOLUTELY......and carried/carries the most charm of any of the 11 Disney parks, I say-----yep, even more than our beloved Dl Ananheim. But it needed more money to make it a bonafide full day quality experience......a lot more money to pay for the likes of meddling grizzly bears and trouble making monkeys. ///but that doesn't disguise the fact that what was there was done well for the most part./// Agreed-----but to do a Disney park right(giving a guest a full day's dose high quality attractions/shops/eats/customer care) one best come to the table with $2 billion or more; this assumes no crazy land reclamation or far reaching earthworks like on Lantau Island. Dropping $800 million in 1998-'99 to construct in Dl's old parking lot could not have given a guest----no matter how it was spent---- a full day high level treat.
Originally Posted By leobloom >> At the end of the day I walked away thinking it was nice, but Disney could have done better. I may have felt different if the MK had gotten upgrades throughout the years but since this is the biggest thing in a long time it was kind of a shrug of the shoulder for me. I also know I am jaded, but I have spoken to several people over the past couple of days who have also done the preview and they all seem to be in the same mindset as I am. << So it sounds like if you're already feeling like MK is a tired, stale place, FLE isn't going to be enough to revive the park. Well, at least it should be popular with the Meet-and-Greet crowd and the NexGen execs. It also sounds like the outdoor Mermaid queue will be murder outside of Dec-March.
Originally Posted By tashajilek "Californians never really wanted anything but Disneyland II... that is why DCA 1.0 bombed so badly" I dont agree with this at all. When a park offers crap like the Maliboomer,a giant orange swing ride and Mullholland Madness next to a park with multiple great rides who the heck wouldnt complain? If they had more California style attractions like GRR, Soarin and Screamin maybe people would have been happier.
Originally Posted By Manfried Maybe the budget was too low, but a bunch of WDI management should have stood up and just said no, but they were more concerned with keeping their jobs and bowing to the altar of Mikey.
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>But I have to chuckle at how IDENTICAL this Mermaid ride is to the DCA version from 2011. Someone at WDI found a great 2-for-1 sale on plastic fish. << Didn't you "get the memo"? ... That's pretty much a standard practice at Disney these days. Forget making their resorts different & more unique from one to another ... to attract more people. Just build McDisney Parks .. that will reach locals only! Look at the Buzz Lightyear rides .. that followed WDW's: DL's, TDL's, DLP's ... pretty identical .. right down to their former "circle-vision theater" reformatting layout. And I wouldn't doubt HKDL's is pretty identical to those 3. Both Muppet Visions .. in both DCA and the Florida "Studio" park. Both "Its Tough To Be A Bug" in DCA & Animal Kingdom. How about Midway Mania in DCA, TDL, and Disney Studios Florida. Everything gets a different facade treatment .. but they know what they are doing - No point in making variations in the rides ... Just take the same blue prints .. same tools for fabrication .. and just do everything the same - from one park to the next. I expect them to continue this "process" for decades to come. If only Little Mermaid was given a complete and total different layout .. with a few scenes made differently to DCA's .... I could see it being something more exciting. Nice that the facade treatment is nice. Nice that the queue is different. Nice different "cake decorations" ... too bad the cake itself and the frosting are the same flavor. I imagine they'll clone the Dwarves Coaster to some other park .. down to the identical trains, show scenes, hills, twists. The word "unique" no longer exists in the Disney universe!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip I don't mind the transplants... it is nice to know when I go to DLR that I will still get to experience some of my favorites from WDW. It's better though when the attractions are at least somewhat different. The DL Pirates, Small World, Peter Pan, Space Mountain and Pooh are all quite different from the MK versions.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper <<I imagine they'll clone the Dwarves Coaster to some other park .. down to the identical trains, show scenes, hills, twists.>> Shanghai. It was originally planned for Shanghai, but when the FLE announcement went over like a lead balloon, they plugged it into it.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Shanghai. It was originally planned for Shanghai, but when the FLE announcement went over like a lead balloon, they plugged it into it.>> Not correct. A Snow White mine train coaster was in the very original FLE project that was worked up and pitched by Eric Jacobson - that also included the indoor Towntown-type project with the Cartoon Corners jolly trolley dark ride. That version was a little more intense than the version that is slated for FLE. The whole of that project got canned as too expensive. That version was significantly better than the current incarnation.
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper I'm just going by what someone who worked on the coaster project told me. This version was designed/pitched for Shanghai originally.
Originally Posted By leemac <<<<DCA is still a master planner's worst nightmare with dead-ends and poor guest circulation>> That and Disney's Hollywood Studios in Florida. What is with that park and what were they possibly thinking?>> Plain and simple answer - they weren't. D-MGM was the fastest park in history to go from blue sky to opening - and at a time when WDW was going through unregulated expansion left, right and center. Sadly the creative team had no interest in master planning the park correctly. The best analogy is that they knew what jigsaw pieces they wanted to go where irrespective of whether they matched up to form a coherent image. You have to get the opening day park structure right otherwise you are creating headaches for future generations of imagineers. Hub and spoke is the most perfect theme park masterplan but others like the Figure of 8 (both Epcot and DAK are variations of this design) work well too. Just don't put in dead ends and poor circulation flows around major attractions.
Originally Posted By leemac <<This version was designed/pitched for Shanghai originally.>> It was included in the package - that much is right - but it wasn't specifically designed for Shanghai. The original idea was for the original FLE proposal and the current version was an off-menu design - it didn't have a home until pitched.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Dropping $800 million in 1998-'99 to construct in Dl's old parking lot could not have given a guest----no matter how it was spent---- a full day high level treat.>> And there is the disconnect between the creative and the operational side of the business. Barry Braverman pushed hard for the second gate to be sold to the public as a lesser experience than DL - and at a lower price point. TDA nixed that idea as unmarketable. He continued to push knowing that guests just wouldn't accept the final product as on par with DL - either as a value proposition or a full day experience.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Maybe the budget was too low, but a bunch of WDI management should have stood up and just said no, but they were more concerned with keeping their jobs and bowing to the altar of Mikey.>> Come on Manfried - you know the realities of working with an organization like TWDC. You do the best you can with the tools you are given. Park budgets are not determined by WDI - they are determined by the business development folks at WDP&R - you simply have to work with the money you are given. The flipside is you have to make sure you get as much bang for your buck as possible which isn't WDI's forte. WDI doesn't have as strong a voice in WDP&R as it did when Walt was alive. Today it is simply an internal supplier to its customer (WDP&R).
Originally Posted By Mickeymouseclub In all these years of hub design I never heard or thought of a figure 8 design . I just know when I am in a bad flow area!! I wonder if they tracked guest movement it would show everybody happy in the Main Hub and Main figure 8 designs but not so happy in the extensions. It gives really off center feel in my mind. I think if they tracked my movement they would find me avoiding the outer design areas. Perhaps that is why it is hard to keep the restaurants open and they have to shutter so many. I will have to track my emotional and mental state next trip in comparison to the hub/8 design. I am sure you can hardly wait for my scientific analysis of the MK trip report!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip The great thing about hub and spoke is it makes it very easy to get from anywhere to anywhere. DHS is by far the smallest Florida park yet if feels like you have to walk FOREVER to see the place. You are constantly presented with having to backtrack because you "can't get there from here". You have to walk blocks to an attraction that is literally 100 feet away as the crow flies. INSANE!!
Originally Posted By HokieSkipper I realize I'm always a crazy one...but I absolutely love the way DHS is setup. But again...I'm weird.
