Originally Posted By WorldDisney I think the problem with TDS is that it simply doesn't offer as much as DL, period. TDS certainly feels like a full day park and is on your first few visits, but like everything, you stop trying to do 'everything' and stick to your favorites. When that's said and done and your eyes have finished popping out from all the eye candy, it comes down to which park is going to take up more of your time with more things to do? Again, the value of your money will always be important. Even though I feel that TDS is equally the value of TDL, in all honesty, I can't say it can consume my time on my 10th visit to the park versus my 20th visit to TDL. Until it gets a fuller roster of rides, its not going to have the repeatablity factor that TDL (and most MK parks in general....HKDL has unfortunately broke that mold) has, period. Added with the non-hopping issues that all the other resorts seem to offer with ease these days and that adds to it like others mentioned. If they had multi-day hopping tickets from the 1st day and not the 3rd, TDS would certainly be busier (and who knows, when Disney gets desparate, they are willing to try anything these days. Maybe OLC will too). TDS' problems though seem to be very different than what the sorry parks of DCA and WDSP are facing as second gates. Just more attractions and it will get peoples more attention all year round with a greater repeat factore like its older sister IMO.
Originally Posted By SuperDry It would seem that there's room for several new attractions: - Corner of the park between Lost River Delta and Port Discovery, between Indy and StormRider. This area actually looks like it would have room for two major attractions if need be. - The rumored area inside the SS Columbia for a small dark ride or walk-through. - Area behind and next to the Roman Ruins. A bit more ambitious would be a whole 'nuther port build in what's now part of the DL parking lot behind Lost River Delta. The parking space could be recovered elsewhere with a parking structure, much as is currently being done for the TDL Hotel. I'm sure a clever Imagineer could come up with more than I have. Even so, I think there may be something to the notion that it's relatively built out on opening day, but whether that is a good thing or bad thing depends entirely on the character of the average guest visit to the resort.
Originally Posted By CMM1 I'll admit to writing this after only looking at the first 10 postings - but I totally agree with trekkeruss on this. If left to a choice of 1 day, one would most likely choose the "Disneyland" park of that resort, for the simple fact that that park contains the traditional Disney favorites that makes one a Disney fan. The 2nd or 3rd or even 4th gate parks at the resorts are there to extend the stays of the resort guests - but I think attendance numbers have pretty well shown that it is the "Disneyland" parks within those resorts that are the primary focal point of any guest visit to a Disney resort. It is the familar hub design, the configuration of the park with the lands of various types arranged in a familiar (if not exact match) pattern and the central castle as a focal point which provides that formula that Disney guests seem to hold so dear. And in a world where travel is so much easier than ever before, you now have Disney fans who will be able to travel to the many Disney resorts and then compare those "Disneyland" parks - in fact, one might think big Disney fans might gain more fun from comparing each of those iconic parks as opposed to enjoying the new attractions and design features found in the newer 2nd, 3rd or 4th gate parks - comparing TDL to DL in Anaheim might actually be more fun than spending a lot of time in TDS riding the handful of new attractions found there. Sure, one will go on those attractions in those parks but they might reserve their true sense of wonder at the comparative differences between the iconic parks that represent the concept they know so well.
Originally Posted By mstaft Personally, I preferred Epcot Center of old to the Magic Kingdom. And I usually set aside two days for Epcot now and one for MK, one for MGM, and one for AK. Epcot Center had highly repeatable attractions then- the original JII, World of Motion, and Horizons. In my mind, these were on par with Florida's version of Pirates, Small World, and a cluster of dark rides.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj I'm not sure the multi-day, multi-park concept works as well in any of the Disney locations aside from Florida, no matter what kind of park you build. The reason why Florida is so successful is because it has always been a vacation destination -- even before Disney World was on the map. Families looking to add a few days at Disney World while they visited the retired grandparents or as part of a Florida beach vacation was how things all got started in Orlando. Now, Orlando stands on its own as a vacation destination, but it all began with a robust Florida tourism market in general. Anaheim, Tokyo, and the Paris countryside don't have the same draw for family vacations outside of their Disney parks. There are no beaches, which is the top destination for most families around the world. Witness the mobs of families from Northern Europe that flock to the Mediterranean coast every summer -- they are not flocking to the French countryside. Tokyo benefits from a huge surrounding population, but based upon my visits to Hawaii, Australia, and Southeast Asia, the Japanese tend to seek out more tropical venues when they go on holiday. That doesn't mean that TDL isn't a popular vacation destination -- but I think there are other choices out there when families are looking to spend several days to a week at a single destination. Without the extended stays, the multi-park concept just doesn't work out that well.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<Anaheim, Tokyo, and the Paris countryside don't have the same draw for family vacations outside of their Disney parks. There are no beaches, which is the top destination for most families around the world.>> I would argue that the Los Angeles area has as much if not more family appeal than central Florida. I would also point out that beaches are a LOT closer to DL than WDW. The other thing I would say is that TDR isn't really lacking in guest count... it's #2 behind WDW, and that's with only two parks. It's the spending of those guests that seems to be off.
Originally Posted By Kayoss I agree with the concept that Magic Kingdom style parks do the best, because they're iconic. DisneySea is proof that no matter how great a park you build, you can't beat the draw of the original design. However, there's certainly more to do at DisneySea then ANY of the non-Magic Kingdom parks. One could argue that DisneySea and Epcot may be on par attraction-wise, with Epcot edging it out a bit, but it simply blows away MGM, Disney Studios Paris, Animal Kingdom, Hong Kong Disneyland and DCA. And what's with this three attractions thing? DisneySea has Indy, Journey to the Center of the Earth, 20K, Sinbad, Mermaid Lagoon theater, Fortress Exploration, the amazing Aladdin animatronic/3D show, Mystic Rhythms, StormRider, Aquatopia, BraviSEAmo, Raging Spirits, and soon...most likely the very best version of Tower of Terror. I'm leaving out all the smaller things like canal Gondolas, the electric Railway, the numorous boats you can ride, Encore, and the Aquasphere just to name a few. It's attraction roster is pretty amazing for a 2nd gate, and as far as thrill rides go, has more then Epcot.
Originally Posted By leemac <<And what's with this three attractions thing? DisneySea has Indy, Journey to the Center of the Earth, 20K, Sinbad, Mermaid Lagoon theater, Fortress Exploration, the amazing Aladdin animatronic/3D show, Mystic Rhythms, StormRider, Aquatopia, BraviSEAmo, Raging Spirits, and soon...most likely the very best version of Tower of Terror. >> Well it is all down to perception. If you happen to love the attraction roster than that will always be your opinion. I think the argument (and it is valid) is that the roster is lite. All of the technology can be found elsewhere and to better effect (Indy at DL, Test Track at Epcot for Journey, StormRider is only a larger version of Star Tours etc.). The park is very heavy on shows.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN You keep making reference about the technology being somewhere else... but to that I say... "Big Deal". I personally take JTTCOTE 10 times over Test track, or Stormrider versus stale Star Tours, a simulator ride that no longer thrill the way it used to. ..And apart from TDL, what other Disney park features the same technology applied in Aquatopia?? And TDS being heavy on shows... well, that's icing on the cake.
Originally Posted By Mr X I agree with post 49 (was gonna write something like that but TDLFAN beat me to it).
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< All of the technology can be found elsewhere and to better effect (Indy at DL, Test Track at Epcot for Journey, StormRider is only a larger version of Star Tours etc. >>> I don't buy the notion that the fact that there's an Indy at DL or TT at Epcot has even 1% to do with what the problem is at TDS. First of all, most TDR guests probably have never been to WDW, and those that have don't have ready access to it. If you were to apply that standard, I can name quite a few attractions at TDL that involve technology and entire rides that are clones of the same attraction elsewhere.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>I don't buy the notion that the fact that there's an Indy at DL or TT at Epcot has even 1% to do with what the problem is at TDS.<< ..and who says there is a problem besides Lee?
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< So where's the mega-post anyway? lol. >>> Better late than never, eh?. I kind of wrote this up as a comparison between TDS and HKDL, which admittedly isn't necessarily a fair comparison by itself. They're in different markets, and serve totally different purposes. This comparison is more in the spirit of discussion between Disney fans that have been to most of the parks worldwide (as many of us here have). It's more along the lines of "if you think TDS has problems because of X, Y, and Z, then you must REALLY think HKDL has problems." I don't really attempt to deal with the financial issues between the two parks - that's for another discussion. And I ramble. Sorry. Here it is: It’s kind of hard to compare TDS and HKDL, as one’s a MK and the other’s not, and one’s a first gate and the other’s a second gate. So I won’t even attempt it, except for one issue: the amount of stuff to do, and more specifically whether or not it’s “full day park.†Many people have mentioned that TDS is not a full-day experience, as there are only a handful of major rides (Journey, 20K, StormRider, Indy). Perhaps a valid consideration if you are a ride hound. But there are lots of secondary rides and other things to do. When I was at HKDL on Sept 13, I did literally every last thing listed on the Guide Map as an attraction or show (except Main Street vehicles), watched the parade and the fireworks, ate two sit-down meals, and had 2-3 hours to spare. This was on a 10am-9pm day with light attendance. I wasn’t in a rush, but was by myself so I didn’t have to take a bathroom break every 30 minutes and all that stuff. There were three “attractions†that I spent almost no time doing, as they weren’t particularly worthwhile: the castle walkthrough, City Hall, and Liki Tikis. The way I figure it, the last one was the only one where you could spend any time at all, and only if you had small kids. Having been at TDS recently when it was dead, it occurred to me to try to do the same thing. The day I started off on this quest it started raining heavily, so I ended up not actually doing it, but it’s interesting to go through it as a mental exercise and see where we end up. Let’s assume a 5-10 minute wait for most attractions. I count at least 2.5 hours just to get through everything in Mermaid Lagoon, including the show and the character greeting. Add another 3 hours to do Sail Away, Encore!, Mystic Rhythms, and the Magic Lamp theater, including getting there a bit before, getting seated, and the whole bit. For attractions, I think I’m being conservative in saying it takes at least 20 minutes to do just about anything by the time you go through the queue, exit, load/unload, and of course ride. So, for Journey, 20K, StormRider, Indy, Raging, Sindbad, Aquatopia, Carousel, and Gondolas, Electric Railway, Steamer Line, Fortress Explorations, we’re at another 3 hours. Add an hour for food (total for the day), and an hour for both the day and night lagoon show together. And I didn’t include streetmosphere, or time just spent walking around exploring. So, I don’t think you could do everything at TDS in a single day, even if there’s light attendance. If there’s even moderate attendance, it’s completely out of the question. Now, of course, rarely is any one person, let alone a group, going to want to see every last show and attraction, so I can see why TDS has somewhat a reputation of running out of things to do if you just hit the E-tickets. But I’m not comparing TDS to TDL in this message, but to HKDL. Any metric that you apply to TDS to come up with it being a less-than-full-day experience is going to yield that HKDL is a half-day or less experience. Let’s say you go into HKDL and just want to ride the E-tickets, which is the metric that is often used to claim TDS is a half-day park. After you ride Space Mountain, Buzz, Jungle Cruise, and Pooh, you’re done. Applying the same standard to TDS, you have Journey, 20K, StormRider, Indy, Raging Spirits, and Sindbad – 50% more. Assuming there are any children in the party, how many additional rides are there for kids? HKDL has three: Carousel, Dumbo and Orbitron, two of which are essentially identical rides except for cosmetics. TDS has twice as many, counting those in Mermaid Lagoon and the Carousel. Counting transport attractions, TDS again has twice as many (railway & steamers vs the railroad). Let’s look at shows/movie attractions: HKDL- Lion King, Philharmagic, Golden Mickeys. TDS: Mystic Rhythms, Encore!, Sail Away, Magic Lamp Theater. And then you have stuff just to explore: TDS has the Columbia, and especially Fortress Explorations, as compared to the treehouse. Rate the interest factor and average time to explore treehouse vs the Fortress. The one thing that HKDL has over TDS is formal character greetings: the character garden vs Ariel. However, it would not surprise me if TDS had at least as much if you take into account unscheduled (or really unpublished) greetings. And then we come to perhaps the most nebulous comparison: places just to look at and marvel, and places to explore. Mr X was the first one to really point this out: HKDL has almost none of this. There are really no hidden areas, alternate walkways, or anything of the sort. This most recent trip was my fifth trip to TDS, and some previous trips had involved multiple days, and I STILL discovered several new things I had not found before: all of Cape Cod for some reason, including the lighthouse, the walkway from there that connects up to the Fortress, and the FP line for 20K. The 20K FP line by itself was amazing to me, tucked into the volcano as it is and above the load platform. Nothing like that at HKDL. Or what about the ride queues? Compare those of Journey and Indy to, well, what would you even start to compare them to at HKDL? There aren’t any queues to speak of as far as theming goes. And finally you have just the experience of being in the different lands. HKDL Adventureland is pretty cool, and of course Main Street is in a class by itself. But then look at the likes of Tomorrowland. You can literally just stand in one place, pivot about, and see everything there is to see: Two restaurants and two attractions. Nothing to explore, and nothing really just to stare at and marvel. I highly doubt that anyone would stand in HKDL Tomorrowland and be able to say that they enjoy just being there for the sake of being there (other than the obvious joy of being at DL in general). Most of the signage and decorations is general theme park stuff. Maybe more along the lines of IOA – sure it’s themed and there’s some amount of detail, and establishes some sense of place, but nothing that’s going to take your breath away or even just cause you pause for a minute and look at the buildout itself. But every land (er, “portâ€) at TDS is something to just marvel at standing there. Perhaps the most compact port, Mysterious Island, is indeed small, and you can see the whole thing from one place. But there’s a lot to look at. You see the steamers come through every few minutes. The water thing erupts. You look up and see the Journey vehicles go down the drop. The volcano erupts from time to time. You see the drilling rig up on the volcano, and see how they’ve cleverly made “lava†drip down the side and into the water, where there’s an effect of water boiling off. You hear the ambient sounds of drilling, along with an occasional announcement by the construction crew. You notice the Nautilus docked, hear its engine idling, then realize that you can go downstairs to the water level dock and look at it up close. Once you’re down there, you discover a place to eat that you didn’t realize was down there. Taking the elevator back up, you notice that it’s so well themed it’s almost as if it’s a primary part of an attraction, even though it’s just an obscure out-of-the-way elevator that very few guests will ever see. A totally different experience. Anyway, I’m not sure why I wrote all of this. They’re interesting to compare (along with DCA) as three of the most recent full-day parks that were designed by WDI. I guess it’s mostly to dispel the myth that TDS is a half-day park, or more particularly to point out that anyone that thinks this must think that HKDL is even less, or just isn’t comparing them reasonably. Sorry if I “gushed†at all. Now, the financials are a completely separate matter. TDS has a big note to service, and if a common guest reaction is that “it’s only a half-day park†and people are staying away then something needs to be done to fix this perception. But I think it’s more likely that for a single-day visitor to TDR, that TDL is the obvious park of choice, as much for the Disney magic as more things to do.
Originally Posted By Mr X <<<---reeling in shock that SuperDry actually referred to Buzz and (ESPECIALLY) Pooh in HK as "e-tickets"!!!! Tell me you don't truly believe that!? :O However, in fairness, I think you left out Philharmagic, which, if not an e-ticket, is certainly a major highlight of the HKDL experience (far more than Buzz or Pooh imo).
Originally Posted By SuperDry I didn't leave out Philharmagic - I listed it as a show rather than a ride. I know that using the term "E-ticket" thses days is a bit weak, as I think what we may call them might be different than what Disney would have used. So, do you think that Buzz and and Pooh at HKDL should be D's?
Originally Posted By Mr X Dark rides, at least up until TDL stopped using the ticket system, were generally "C" tickets I believe. Didn't mean to imply that you'd "ignored" Philharmagic, it's just that on a list of HK highlights that would right up near the top for me. As far as "E" tickets, HK has only 2. Space and Jungle. As for TDS, I would say Journey, Indy, 20,000, Sindbad, probably Stormrider and MAYBE Ragin (well, it WOULD be, as a popular new attraction...but it's a disappointment to me except for the entrance!). On the other hand, back in the ticket days at TDL any attraction that had fastpass was automatically an "E" ticket, so I suppose that means Pooh in HK would apply? :O
Originally Posted By Mr X An imagineer on the DisneySea project once told me "the whole PARK is an e-ticket!", before going on to bitch some more about what a drag that DCA job was.
Originally Posted By paulyahoo << back in the ticket days at TDL >> Did they really have ticket books as late as FP was introduced? When exactly they switched to current passports?
Originally Posted By Mr X Sometime in the very late 1990's, I believe. Yes, they kept it MUCH later than the American parks, and I still remember seeing the ticket system (all-day passports were ALSO available, so you could chose any option) back on my first trip to Tokyo in 1998. One interesting part of that was that you had to give your ticket OR show your passport to enter every attraction (with the usual signs, "please remove a "D" coupon for this attraction), so people with a day passport would by those passholders in order to wear them around on their shirt all day rather than reach into their pocket everytime to pull out the pass. TDLFAN knows a lot more about this than I, as I believe he used to buy regular, "general admission" tickets sometimes for shows and shopping.
