Originally Posted By trekkeruss I definitely wouldn't say TDS is a next-generation park. What made it work for me was the beautifully executed theming, the high caliber shows, and some expertly crafted new rides. Nothing ground-breaking in nature, just all-around, top-shelf quality.
Originally Posted By Mr X I don't recall anyone calling it "next generation", though I'm sure you are correct (just never read about it). I sure don't think of it that way. I just think it's lavish, and really well done theme-wise. The only park in which I could have a completely enjoyable day WITHOUT ever experiencing any of the attractions (and I've done close to that several times!). I do LIKE the attractions, but I agree they're not all that repeatable (I always seem to go back to Mermaid Lagoon and Sindbad though, and usually Indy and Journey as well). What *I've* heard it referred to by some Japanese people is "Magic Kingdom 2.0", and that I'd agree with. It shares MANY qualities with Disneyland, and in a way I think that's cool. Sure, new parks should be "different", but when they try to break too far from the formula that works (DCA being a grand example of THAT) it ain't always the gem the creators might think it should have been! Having said all THAT, though, I think that all of DisneySea's attractions are certainly slick, elaborate, and appear very "state of the art" in terms of excecution. And I love that.
Originally Posted By LindsayC I have no arguments against the top-shelf quality (and that means something completley different in the UK -so I’ll go with your interpretation!) of the parks offerings, nor the standards of a craft executed, but the hype from within and outside the company never came anywhere close to exceeding my expectations (and as a former Disney Store employee I had to live up to that notion everyday It’s surprising to me now (as I did think for sometime I must be the only one), just how many people I do talk to at the company (WDI) who actually share the same concerns I had with the park from day one - (and most of these concerns are actually different to Lee’s, just so you know).
Originally Posted By leemac <<LOL, pretty much everything in HKDL can "be found elsewhere", but apparently it isn't an issue there like it is at TDS, a park full of original attractions and shows, now is it? >> In a $2bn park I think that is an issue and it seems guests agree otherwise the park wouldn't be regarded as "failing" by the OLC. This thread isn't about comparison to other parks. It is why TDS has "problems". On September 4 2001 I expected a lot more from the park than it has ever delivered. I don't believe OLC got bang for their buck. Naturally I come to expect such defensive comments from the TDS lovers crowd.
Originally Posted By leemac <<What *I've* heard it referred to by some Japanese people is "Magic Kingdom 2.0", and that I'd agree with. It shares MANY qualities with Disneyland, and in a way I think that's cool. Sure, new parks should be "different", but when they try to break too far from the formula that works (DCA being a grand example of THAT) it ain't always the gem the creators might think it should have been!>> I'd say MK v0.8 as it lacks the charm and fantasy of the original park. OLC demanded that park mirror TDL so they got exactly what they wanted.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>the park wouldn't be regarded as "failing" by the OLC.<<< We'll have to take your word for it. I've never heard or seen in print any such thing, but you have claimed in the past to be privy to inside info, so maybe you're right. The numbers *I've* seen seem to indicate a reasonably to very healthy park, but then again it has seemed to me that DCA and WDSP were doing poorly and I was told how off-base I was on THOSE speculations too, so I can only comment on what I've seen and heard. >>>Naturally I come to expect such defensive comments from the TDS lovers crowd.<<< Cheap shot. WD has been one of the more moderate commentators on HKDL from the folks who've been there, and pretty balanced overall. *I* think it was a fair and thought provoking comment, myself. But then again, that's just me. Your retort, however, didn't surprise me in the least.
Originally Posted By leemac As I say, so typical of the TDR obsessives to resort to stretching outside the thread to slander other parks. The thread was "Just what is the problem with TDS?". <<We'll have to take your word for it. I've never heard or seen in print any such thing, but you have claimed in the past to be privy to inside info, so maybe you're right. >> Come on. Every show being altered, a new daytime parade, ToT early, Sindbad going under etc. Is that not fundamental enough changes to suggest that something is wrong? Hardly any TDS merchandise, falling OLC revenue, profits and average guest spend. What else do you need? OLC are never going to admit publicly that they are having to re-think their strategy for their second gate.
Originally Posted By mstaft I'll take uniformity in theme and excellent execution with immersive storytelling even if using tried and true technology any day over just new technology with poor application. Technology is just technology without a good story and wonderful theming behind it. Sounds like TDS vs DCA to me. If that makes it seem like I settle for less, well I'd gladly trade DCA and its problems for a park like TDS and its problems!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN Trust me, you are not treading for less. I compare it to trading oranges with empty bottles.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< the hype from within and outside the company [about TDS] never came anywhere close to exceeding my expectations >>> Well, at least during the first year, it apparently exceeded the general public's expectations, as TDS was the first and only theme park anywhere in the world to reach 10 million guests during the first year of operation. Compare this with DCA's performance, or with HKDL's projected performance, both in terms of raw turnstile clicks, the percentage of clicks that were the result of full-paying guests vs. deeply discount tickets or complimentary tickets to CMs, or in total gate revenue. Do you think TDS came nowhere close to exceeding the general public's expectations? <<< It’s surprising to me now (as I did think for sometime I must be the only one), just how many people I do talk to at the company (WDI) who actually share the same concerns I had with the park from day one - (and most of these concerns are actually different to Lee’s, just so you know). >>> Do tell!
Originally Posted By SuperDry Leemac wrote: <<< As I say, so typical of the TDR obsessives to resort to stretching outside the thread to slander other parks. The thread was "Just what is the problem with TDS?". >>> Well, at least part of the reason for this is that people's comments don't stand in isolation. Here on LP, we're not lone crime scene eyewitnesses who might have a sentence or two of commentary quoted in the newspaper once or twice in our lifetimes. We're a community, and over time we develop a sense of each others' likes and dislikes and where they're coming from based on what we post. Myself, as a huge Disney fan, and somewhat frequent park visitor (at least for someone that lives 850 miles from the nearest park, not to mention 7700 miles from the best ones ), and AP holder at more than one resort, I do separate in my head (and try to in my posts) my opinions and preferences as an individual guest and what I think of the parks from a business point of view. By "business point of view" I mean in terms of attendance, revenue, earnings, growth in earnings, and so on. For example, Sindbad is one of my "top three" attractions at TDS, yet I recognize that despite several attempts at promotion, it just hasn't struck a chord with the guest population as a whole, especially in terms of how WDI and OLC thought it would be received. I can consider it one of my all-time favorite Disney attractions while at the same time recognizing that the low popularity overall means that it has serious problems as far as the average guest is concerned. Leemac, what I find remarkable about your posts is that there is rarely any distinction between what you post as your own personal preferences and what makes sense from a WDC or OLC P&L sheet standpoint. Because of this, there are often large discrepancies in your posts, at least as they are read in their first approximation. For example, you've frequently said that one common complaint about TDS is that there isn't enough to do, and that it's not considered a full-day park. Yet at the same time you are curiously silent about the very same complaints about HKDL which by any objective measure on those merits is much worse. At the same time, you've said on several occasions that one of the biggest problems with TDS is that it was built out too completely on Opening Day, and that as a park that relies heavily on the local, repeat guest market, this was a big mistake, as they should be able to add something major every year or two to bring previous visitors back. Well, which is it? How can there be too few things to do while at the same time it was overbuilt on opening day such that they can't add to it each year? Please realize that I'm not trying to pick a fight - I am genuinely interested in what you have to say. I just don't always know how to interpret the conflicts in yout body of posts as a whole.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN IN regards to TDS being built out.. I find that to be nonsense. The park has seen several new facilities built since day 1 and has offered more entertainment and special events in the last 4 yrs than the MK has offered in the past 15 yrs! The fact that there is land still avail next to LRD and PD, TOT going up, and the regular entertainment is being changed..opens new opportunities to bring the locals and foreign guests back to TDS. The trick is NOT to screw up the new offerings with subpar shows like BraviSEAmo! or shortened versions like it was the case with Encore!.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Yet at the same time you are curiously silent about the very same complaints about HKDL which by any objective measure on those merits is much worse.>> I don't know if I'm silent on that. I'm sure I have said that they should have built more for Day 1. That is my belief. However I understand the pressures to use the capital expenditure wisely and to add each year. <<At the same time, you've said on several occasions that one of the biggest problems with TDS is that it was built out too completely on Opening Day, and that as a park that relies heavily on the local, repeat guest market, this was a big mistake, as they should be able to add something major every year or two to bring previous visitors back. Well, which is it? How can there be too few things to do while at the same time it was overbuilt on opening day such that they can't add to it each year?>> Hmmm. I don't see that as a contradiction at all. I do think it was too built-out from Day 1 but there isn't enough to do. They didn't use space wisely in that park at all. Overbuilt isn't the correct word (and apologies if I have used that before) but built-out. There is a difference. <<he park has seen several new facilities built since day 1 and has offered more entertainment and special events in the last 4 yrs than the MK has offered in the past 15 yrs! The fact that there is land still avail next to LRD and PD, TOT going up, and the regular entertainment is being changed..>> If shows are your thing then TDS is a success. The reason it has all those special events is that it can't attract regular guests on the strength of the park itself. I think it is stretching to say they have added "several new facilities". New popcorn and gyoza bun carts don't count. Neither does Raging Spirits which is not only a waste of space but draws your eyesight to the poor sightlines behind it now.
Originally Posted By leemac I should add that even WDI wanted more for HKDL. Even the Storybook Theater was a late addition. Could you imagine how little there would be to do with only 1 full show? D-MGM/WDSP shows how packing the place with shows is cheaper and better at keeping people in the park.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>The reason it has all those special events is that it can't attract regular guests on the strength of the park itself.<< So how come they keep doing these events at TDL then? Isn't that the morepopular park? So why bother with it at the Land, especially when they are doing it at the Sea as well...? Overlaping events can only hurt TDS more... so why bother with TDL?? ..and yes, they are my thing, but before they had their first special event at TDS, I had already proclaimed it to be the best non-DL park Disney ever built...and that is a FACT than many agree with me on.
Originally Posted By leemac <<So how come they keep doing these events at TDL then? Isn't that the morepopular park? So why bother with it at the Land, especially when they are doing it at the Sea as well...? Overlaping events can only hurt TDS more... so why bother with TDL??>> Precisely. You would have to ask OLC that. Their market is aging rapidly and the lack of flexibility in their ticketing structure isn't helping. They are cannabilising each other. I worry that TDR has exhausted a big chunk of their target audience and until Japan becomes a more attractive vacation destination in Asia (reads: cheaper) we aren't ever likely to see 18m guests inside TDL again. IMO.
Originally Posted By TDLFAN You meant 18mill butts in TDL... I got you. (per year) can mine count as two? >>the lack of flexibility in their ticketing structure isn't helping. << Agreed. That needs to be changed. >>I worry that TDR has exhausted a big chunk of their target audience << OLC dropped the ball with so much repetitiveness in their events... They should have left things alone and come up with difference events to keep the locals interested. However, I wonder how that has affected AP sales there in the past 1-2 yrs... seems to me you always see people using Aps (which hurts the bottom line in the long run I reckon). I too worry that 1993-2003 will go down in history as TDL's brightest decade ever... Just like the MK had it's 1981-1991...
Originally Posted By TDLFAN I am still hopefull that the new stuff coming to TDS will help the numbers at that park... remains to be seen of course..
