Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder fodd, my point was that I'm boggled by how many people try and paint the current Administration as perfect, as in every decision they make is the right one, even in the face of evidence that it wasn't. See our hard right faction on this board for examples. One hard right poster in particular is now describing detractors as "mentally ill". Yeah, that's a great defense and a great debate. Please note the sarcasm.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <my point was that I'm boggled by how many people try and paint the current Administration as perfect> That's not a point - that's a strawman.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <my point was that I'm boggled by how many people try and paint the current Administration as perfect> That's not a point - that's a strawman.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Hmmm. So not only do you know more than the Senate Intelligence Committee, you now presume to tell me what I really meant? Holy cow. No, sorry, this was exactly my point- I'm boggled by how many people try and paint the current Administration as perfect.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <So not only do you know more than the Senate Intelligence Committee, you now presume to tell me what I really meant?> I was assuming you meant what you wrote. Did you mean something different? <I'm boggled by how many people try and paint the current Administration as perfect.> I'm not aware of anyone doing that.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Okay, where's the dramamine, I know I put it somewhere.....
Originally Posted By friendofdd Thanks, SPP, I understand now. I'll bow out of the discussion now. Individual LPers matter to me as on line friends, but I don't find it matters as much to me that they have the opinion the the current administration is totally perfect, or totally imperfect. It appears to me that those opinions are usually based on political ideology and rational discourse does nothing to change that. The Bush haters can see no good in the man and the Clinton haters can see no good in him. Both groups are irrational in their hatred of particular politicians.
Originally Posted By gadzuux That doesn't seem entirely fair. If you take a dispassionate look at the results of each administration, one left us with peace, prosperity and forward momentum. The other has embroiled us in carnage, deceit, and division. They are not equal.
Originally Posted By ecdc Exactly, gadzuux. Was Clinton perfect? No. Neither was any President. I have my issues with some of what Clinton did, or didn't do,just like anyone. But as someone who voted for both Clinton and Bush, I can step back and take a look at the men I voted for. To say (as Douglas did) that Bush's administration is less flawed than Clinton's, is so ridiculously far out there as to defy logic or reason. Only the most blinded partisan would even say something like that without laughing out loud.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <If you take a dispassionate look at the results of each administration, one left us with peace, prosperity and forward momentum. The other has embroiled us in carnage, deceit, and division.> Hardly. One left us with the illusion of peace, prosperity, and forward momentum, while actually providing us deceit and division.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh And the other is now cleaning up the messes left by the one that came before.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <To say (as Douglas did) that Bush's administration is less flawed than Clinton's, is so ridiculously far out there as to defy logic or reason.> Please. The Clinton administration was far more dogged by corruption then the Bush administration has been.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 I for one if rating them as a commodity rather than as a person, I don't feel I've gotten my monies worth from either.. at times from both yes, at other times and on certain issues, from neither.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <<If you take a dispassionate look at the results of each administration, one left us with peace, prosperity and forward momentum. The other has embroiled us in carnage, deceit, and division.>> <Hardly. One left us with the illusion of peace, prosperity, and forward momentum, while actually providing us deceit and division.> Gee, that argument might actually work - on someone who didn't actually live through the last 15 years.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>Who has defended Nixon as perfect?<< At the time, I can clearly recall that there were some who felt that anyone who attacked the President was a commie or pinko liberal or some such. It wasn't until Nixon actually resigned that these voices were reduced to a whimper. There are still a few out there who are holding the torch in an effort to rehabilitate Nixon. One of the biggest works at the Nixon Library, and regularly rebuts unflattering historical assessments. It must be mind boggling to live there. (I might add that with an obvious exception, I haven't seen anyone here presenting the Bush Administration, or George Bush, as perfect. There are some of us who are willing to rebut what we view as unwarranted attacks [ie: "Bush is a liar."]. I suppose it would be easier to understand if some examples could be presented. [In much the same way that I found posts that stated that Rove was obviously guilty, after being told that no one here had actually accused him of anything.])
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <Gee, that argument might actually work - on someone who didn't actually live through the last 15 years.> The argument would work on anyone who is willing to actually look at the facts.
Originally Posted By DouglasDubh <I might add that with an obvious exception, I haven't seen anyone here presenting the Bush Administration, or George Bush, as perfect.> Really? Who is the obvious exception? I don't believe there is a person here who hasn't disagree with some of the Bush administration policies, or admit they've made some mistakes.
Originally Posted By jonvn "The argument would work on anyone who is willing to actually look at the facts." Which you present none of. I'm older than most people here, and have seen as an adult a few more Administrations, both left and right wings. Carter was terrible. I thought he was one of the very worst. Until the current guy came along. He is beyond the pale bad. Carter at least did not embroil us in a pointless war that distracted us from who our real enemy is. Carter was just ineffective. Bush is out and out destructive. Nixon will probably end up being considered a better President than Bush II, and his Administration was a failure due to scandal. This one will be a failure due to them making every last thing they touch worse off than what it was before. Those who defend Clinton saying he was great, are saying it as a reflection that he was simply just not terrible. He did a good caretaker job of things while he was in office, and didn't wreck much. He was, however, the target of constant attacks by the neocons who are strictly out to remake this country into a much worse place to live. When Bush leaves office we will be in a much worse off position both socially and economically than when he started. We'll be a more divided country, with nations around the world apalled at the behavior of our government. Most people will be left poorer, and less affluent, with less of a chance for a brighter future for their kids. Meanwhile, we get people still blaming Clinton, who has been out of office over six years. And we still get people blaming Democrats, who control neither the Congress or the Executive branches. It is amazing to me that they are being blamed for things when they are simply not in control, while the Republicans who are not criticized. I think it is very telling that some people here are willing to say that Clinton did both good and bad. And that Bush did some good along with the major degree of bad. But then there are some people here who can not tolerate one breath of a word against Bush, or one breath of a word positive for Clinton. These people are simply not out for positive change or the benefit of this country, they are simply out for a political win, regardless as to how it affects all of us, and they themselves. You have to wonder who they are listening to and why. Why are these followers of the neocons going out there and taking positions that are contrary to their own self interest? I can understand a George Will saying "rich people should get more," because he is quite wealthy. But lower middle class individuals who have nothing, and now will likely never have anything? What is the motivation for them to want the estate tax ban lifted, or other such items? Why are they more concerned about gay marriage than their own security and prosperity? I think the answer is a rather insidious one. People like to be led, and they don't like to think. Latching onto simple ideas like gay marriage is comforting and appeals to people's baser instincts. So they literally without any thought grab onto these issues and completely disregard absolutely everything else that is moving them towards their own economic ruin. I rather doubt that anyone on here is super rich. And yet we have people here who are in support of those people in politics for whom their main goal is to make the super rich even richer at their own expense. And when asked to respond as to why, we get "you're mental," or "no it isn't" as if that was some sort of clever repartee. It's not. It's vacuous and thoughtless. And it appears that such behavior is what is required for supporting the policies of government right now. I can only hope that people are now starting to wake up and realize they are being led to their own destruction, and that people on the radio like Rush or other columnists and pundits who are either wealthy or are out to simply make enemies amongst people in America are not good people to be listening to.
