Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt The rehashing of what Walt said about Disneyland is nice, and certainly very appropriate to the discussion, the fact of the matter is that DCA isn't obligated to abide by every guideline Walt established for DL at its dedication. DCA is a different park with a unique set of objectives and aside from the Disney in it's name the park has no real connection to Disney the man. Golden Dreams was fine for what it set out to do and was one of the few attractions at the park that actually reinforced the park's message and overarching theme.
Originally Posted By unforgetabledal >>if you don't like the message it sends, couldn't you just not go and see it?<< Did just that. I went one time hated it, and never went back. Now Disney has agreed with me and got rid of it. So, I’m one happy boy!
Originally Posted By unforgetabledal >>He wanted a happy place where dreams came true. He wanted a place that inspired fond memories. Too much of the "real world" would ruin the dream. Don't believe me? Let's look at another Walt quote about Disneyland: “I don't want the public to see the world they live in while they're in the Park. I want to feel they're in another world.” A strong case could be made that Walt wanted Disneyland to be a place where people could escape the "real world".<< SafariRob, I think you said it all, and really nothing left to say.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt “I don't want the public to see the world they live in while they're in the Park. I want to feel they're in another world.” Walt Disney said things that seemingly contradicted his actions. For example he brought Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln to DL and Hall of Presidents to WDW, which, like Golden Dreams, feature subject matter that is very much a part of the real world. What do you think about that unforgetabledal?
Originally Posted By Socrates How do you feel about the Hall of Presidents? Socrates "The unexamined life is not worth living."
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <What do you think about that unforgetabledal?> Not seeing unsanitized history makes him a "happy boy," we know that.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Yes, but I'm specifically asking his opinion about Walt Disney's inclusion of these sorts of attractions in his parks long before DCA was ever conceived. The poster asserts that Walt said this or that yet continues to ignore the fact that subject matter like the topics touched on in the film Golden Dreams are nothing new for Disney.
Originally Posted By SafariRob >>For example he brought Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln to DL and Hall of Presidents to WDW.<< I don't think he was part of the decision to bring Hall of Presidents to WDW...but I could be wrong. Having said that, he absolutely believed that Lincoln had a place in Disneyland. Here's what the ticket for the attraction read: "So young people may have a better knowledge of the man who played such an important part in American History..." Here's a picture: <a href="http://www.perry.com/disney/tickets/mrlincn1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.perry.com/disney/ti...ncn1.jpg</a> Like I said earlier, these "hard facts" were (and continue to be) balanced out with plenty of fantasy, inspiration and dreams.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt >>For example he brought Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln to DL and Hall of Presidents to WDW.<< "I don't think he was part of the decision to bring Hall of Presidents to WDW...but I could be wrong." No, I think you're right, however Liberty Street, which was originally planned for an expansion of Main Street at Disneyland, featured an attraction like Hall of Presidents. While I'm not sure if Walt Disney proposed the show for WDW, the concept does date back to DL's early days. "Like I said earlier, these "hard facts" were (and continue to be) balanced out with plenty of fantasy, inspiration and dreams." Exactly.
Originally Posted By unforgetabledal >>Walt Disney said things that seemingly contradicted his actions. For example he brought Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln to DL and Hall of Presidents to WDW, which, like Golden Dreams, feature subject matter that is very much a part of the real world. What do you think about that unforgetabledal?<< Mr. Lincoln was done in a very inspiring way. Walt did not go after weaknesses in Abe Lincoln, even though every man has weaknesses. He took what made Lincoln great and put that on display, and that is what people want to see at Disneyland. Now if Golden Dreams was about how great America, and California was then great. But Golden Dreams had to point out that America was not perfect, as if any country, or person is. Like I have said Golden dreams has it’s place, it’s just not in a Disney park. Most people go to Disney to feel great about their day, and yes maybe even their country while they are in the park. We can go home and put on the TV for free to see that we are not perfect. Just give us a few hours that say, maybe we are a wonderful place, and a wonderful country.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> Having said that, he absolutely believed that Lincoln had a place in Disneyland. << Bear in mind that Lincoln was the first and only AA in existence at that time. It had completed it's run at the NY fair and was all dressed up with no place to go. So of course Walt wanted it in Disneyland, what else is he going to do with it?
Originally Posted By unforgetabledal >>Bear in mind that Lincoln was the first and only AA in existence at that time. It had completed it's run at the NY fair and was all dressed up with no place to go. So of course Walt wanted it in Disneyland, what else is he going to do with it?<< Good point!
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Let's look at another Walt quote about Disneyland:<< Pro tip: All that stuff that Walt said? He didn't.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Walt did not go after weaknesses in Abe Lincoln, even though every man has weaknesses. He took what made Lincoln great and put that on display, and that is what people want to see at Disneyland." The actual content of Lincoln's speech in the show is about civil unrest in the context of the Civil War. The presentation attempts to make Lincoln's world relative to our nation today. I can't think of any other topic in all of DLR more "in the real world" than the content of Great Moments With Mr. Lincoln. "Bear in mind that Lincoln was the first and only AA in existence at that time. It had completed it's run at the NY fair and was all dressed up with no place to go. So of course Walt wanted it in Disneyland, what else is he going to do with it?" Lincoln predates GMWML. It originated with the One Nation Under God show that had been toyed around with for Liberty Street that eventually became Hall of Presidents. This was several years before Abe debuted at the NY World's Fair. In any case, if Walt really wanted to keep the real world out of DL he could have easily made the decision to keep Lincoln out of the park.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt **The presentation attempts to make Lincoln's world relative to our nation today.** Sorry, that should be "Lincoln's words".
Originally Posted By gadzuux My understanding was that the Lincoln AA was the first ever, and it was created specifically for the Illinois state pavilion at the NY world's fair. I've never heard of the 'One Nation Under God' show - did it ever get created? Obviously Liberty Street never did, so where did it play?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Mr. Lincoln was done in a very inspiring way. Walt did not go after weaknesses in Abe Lincoln, even though every man has weaknesses.> But it DID go after weaknesses in our country. Maybe you're too young to remember the original film (stills, actually) preshow from the 60's, but it didn't shy away from the fact that some Americans kept other Americans as chattel, as human property, with zero rights. It didn't shy away from the fact that this was our darkest period; hell, we were flat out slaughtering each other. <Now if Golden Dreams was about how great America, and California was then great. But Golden Dreams had to point out that America was not perfect, as if any country, or person is.> And the original Lincoln show pointed out that America was far from perfect too. And that we can and did rise above it. Kind of like, you know, Golden Dreams did. <Like I have said Golden dreams has it’s place, it’s just not in a Disney park.> Sure it is. <Just give us a few hours that say, maybe we are a wonderful place, and a wonderful country. > We get it. You prefer sanitized history and "everything is great about America." Usually that's what Disney gives us. Once in a while it's a bit more unsanitized, and many of us adults prefer that.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Ahem. Just a few trims and ends here... >>I don't think he [Walt] was part of the decision to bring Hall of Presidents to WDW...<< Walt had designers working on the attraction that eventually became The Hall of Presidents as early as 1956. "One Nation Under God" was intended as the centerpiece of Liberty Street, which was never built in Disneyland, but was built in Disney World as Liberty Square. >>Bear in mind that Lincoln was the first and only AA in existence at that time. It had completed it's run at the NY fair and was all dressed up with no place to go.<< Not true. Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln opened in Disneyland while the World's Fair was still running. The second AA Lincoln was installed in Disneyland for the Tencennial celebration in the Summer of 1965. Both Lincolns performed simultaneously. Also, the first AAs were Tiki Birds, installed and running since 1963. Mr. Lincoln was the first HUMAN AA. >>All that stuff that Walt said? He didn't.<< He certainly did. Granted, he may have had others write some of those quotes for him, but they all represent his thoughts and ideas. One of my favorite Walt quotes is also a bit obscure: "I didn't treat my youngsters like frail flowers, and I think no parent should. Children are people, and they should have to reach to learn about things, to understand things, just as adults have to reach if they want to grow in mental stature. Life is composed of lights and shadows, and we would be untruthful, insincere, and saccharine if we tried to pretend there were no shadows. Most things are good, and they are the strongest things; but there are evil things too, and you are not doing a child a favor by trying to shield him from reality. The important thing is to teach a child that good can always triumph over evil, and that is what our pictures do." The Mr. Lincoln presentation wasn't the only example of "hard facts" in Walt Disney's Disneyland. Tom Sawyer Island had a western fort, armed with guns to repel invaders. Out back was a cemetery, for goodness sake. Until 1962 there was not a single "fantasy" element in the Jungle Cruise, but there were many examples of "survival of the fittest." Would Walt have appreciated Golden Dreams? Who knows. But he did NOT believe in whitewashing everything with candy coated fantasy.
Originally Posted By gadzuux >> The second AA Lincoln was installed in Disneyland for the Tencennial celebration in the Summer of 1965. Both Lincolns performed simultaneously. << Really? Both figures on the same stage at the same time, doing the same thing? Or maybe in parallel showrooms, like country bears. My first visit wasn't until 1975, so it was before my time, but I don't recall any of this.
