Originally Posted By leemac <<They barely have any REAL (substantial) land available for growth now. And green belts are now little retention ponds with scrub and shrubs. Not like during the 70s-90s.>> The question is what could the company do with it? I think there is a dawning realization within Parks & Resorts that the likelihood of additional Disney theme parks in Orlando is remote unless there is a significant change in tourist traffic. Personally I don't see how WDW could justify another park - I just don't see the economics adding up. <<I honestly feel TDO and Burbank think the parks are ancillary businesses to timeshares/real estate/food/retail.>> No - there are integral to each other. However the fact is that the ROIC for theme parks is poor - they are massively capital-intensive and generate returns that wouldn't justify their construction for many companies. The real money is in the outside-the-berm activities. Plus you need the infrastructure to get people on property - so developing the rest of the resort except for theme parks makes good business sense. WDW Co. will mine more money from on-property guests at their hotels than inside one of the parks. Is the central Florida market saturated? It is now a mature market and I wonder whether it can continue to grow meaningfully once the US recession recedes. So you need to tap into new markets to get folks there. Maybe that involves building suites hotels or maybe that is trying to bring high net worth individuals to property. <<And why someone would pay the prices Disney wants when they live in places like Windermere is crazy to me. If I had that kind of money, I wouldn't want to live trapped between theme parks and resort hotels with smog-belching busses clogging my roads etc.>> I think you misunderstand the market that Golden Oak is targeting - it isn't the 365-day residents - there are very few upscale communities in central Florida where permanent residents are in the majority - it is the super-wealthy that can afford to spend months at a time in central Florida (usually from the North-East). There just aren't the jobs in that market that can support a purchase of a house like those at Golden Oak (and I should add that only a handful are up in the $8m range). Early indications are that the project will be a success - there are a lot of leads on potential sales but that is nothing without the deposit.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Arvida eventually became the homebuilding arm of St. Joe Company, as leemac said, but as the housing bubble burst, St. Joe got out of building homes. St. Joe still develops master-planned communities, but it has relationships with other builders, like Beazer for example, to build the homes in them.>> No-one attempted my google search! Check out who the past CEO was and that will answer your question. The individual was integral to the direction of the real estate development of WDW.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***WDW Co. will mine more money from on-property guests at their hotels than inside one of the parks*** Interesting way to put it. At least you didn't say "bilk".
Originally Posted By leemac <<The land could have been used for many different things ... and, yes, even a park or two. Disney dropped Disney-MGM right down in an awful location ... so building thru World Drive up the 'new' end and placing something else there could have been done.>> Like what? It isn't the question of whether they could do something with the land it is whether the economics of any such project would hold up. The answer is simple - there just isn't a rational argument for future major growth at WDW. Seriously if I see a fifth theme park in WDW in my lifetime I'll be amazed (which I hope is 50 years plus!) - I just don't see any way that the market can support five fully-developed theme parks (ie. 80k per day-ers) - I expect WDP&R will "continue" to develop the existing ones (or at least start to!).
Originally Posted By leemac <<Oh, and I was stuck at Port Orleans during the storm.>> I just missed Andrew at WDW - we were on the gulf coast at Treasure Island when it come on-shore - a truly frightening experience for me. One I hope I don't have to experience again.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Interesting way to put it. At least you didn't say "bilk". >> I did write bilk to start with! The lawyer in me made me change it. )
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy Interesting sales pitch for the "super-wealthy" market that would buy these things. The truth is that a number of these sorts of communities were built in tourist destinations across the country during the housing bubble. Quite a few of them are on the ropes financially right now. We're seeing a softening in real estate again that is likely to lead to another precipitous decline in home prices over the next couple of years. I wouldn't want to be involved in any real estate ventures for at least another 5-10 years.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo If marketted in the Middle East, Russia and China, I am sure they will sell. They are the ones buying up mansions in London, Paris and the sort right now.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Some have bought in to our Paris vacation club. They tend to move in from June to September. For that experience, they will be paying $400,000 upfront and $21,000 a year in dues. Now, that is not as expensive as this WDW development, but I bet there is a market for these kind of buyers.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << If marketted in the Middle East, Russia and China, I am sure they will sell. They are the ones buying up mansions in London, Paris and the sort right now. >> The economies in those markets are all trending worse than the U.S. right now. I wouldn't expect those countries to support any real estate boom in the next few years.
Originally Posted By magnet >>>Check out who the past CEO was and that will answer your question.<<< Yeah, Pete Rummell - that's who you're talking about, right?
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>I just missed Andrew at WDW - we were on the gulf coast at Treasure Island when it come on-shore - a truly frightening experience for me. One I hope I don't have to experience again.<< I slept through it. ;-) Katrina and Wilma were scarier.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I never got why Americans always equate a British accent with intelligence ... or the Queen.<< It depends on which type of English accent you're talking about. You do know that there is more than one, right?
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Is the central Florida market saturated?<< I seem to recall reading somwhere that the residential vacancy rate in OTown is about 30%. That's right, 30% of all homes are unoccupied. That sounds saturated to me.
Originally Posted By fkurucz ***<< If marketted in the Middle East, Russia and China, I am sure they will sell. They are the ones buying up mansions in London, Paris and the sort right now. >> The economies in those markets are all trending worse than the U.S. right now. I wouldn't expect those countries to support any real estate boom in the next few years.*** Plus OTown is NOT London or Paris.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Yeah, Pete Rummell - that's who you're talking about, right?>> Yup - our former esteemed leader at DDC. WDW's construction boom in the late '80s/early '90s was driven by Peter.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> I never got why Americans always equate a British accent with intelligence ... or the Queen. << It always works. Unless it's a Cockney accent Look at how many Brits do commercial work on the American telly.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> It just has Donald Trump-like sleaze all over it. << Don't you just love his hair?
Originally Posted By MPierce >> They wouldn't give me one, so I stayed five hours late anyway ... no one came to the door ... maybe because no one was out in the storm, but to this day it is one of the things that makes me angriest about Disney. You hear about how they react during emergencies. Well, telling guests they need to leave a room during a major weather event is NOT magical, not guest friendly, not smart ... and, in my case at least, not followed! << That is absolutely unbelievable that anybody, much less Disney, is capable of doing that.
Originally Posted By MPierce >> Is the central Florida market saturated? It is now a mature market and I wonder whether it can continue to grow meaningfully once the US recession recedes. So you need to tap into new markets to get folks there. Maybe that involves building suites hotels or maybe that is trying to bring high net worth individuals to property. << But in turn to fill all those rooms you have to expand the Parks so they don't become to crowded year round to enjoy. I really don't care how many resort Hotels Disney builds. I love touring them. They are an attraction unto themselves. I just don't want the parks elbows to a**holes with peole because Disney expanded their accomadations with out expanding their entertainment venues.
