Originally Posted By BrigmanMT 2 "Also this park has a lot of restaurants and F&B is set up to serve meals to 30% of the day's attendance every hour. There definitely is enough dining facilities so I can only guess that it was just logistical issues." I wonder if the patrons are used to strict schedules, and will have to retrain themselves to dine at all times of the day while they are in the park. Maybe the only major problem happened between noon and 2:00pm for lunch, and again from 5-6 for dinner. This is the type of cultural molding that will make these first days quite interesting.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Big Thunder is a realitively easy and inexpensive attraction. I beleive it is the best bang for the buck Disney has ever gotten. It cost half the price of Disneyland's Winnie the Pooh, >>> I can't believe that this is true if the BTMRR number is adjusted for inflation. And if it isn't, the comparison is meaningless.
Originally Posted By BrigmanMT 2 Why is it meaningless? It shows that Big Thunder has given the company a wonderful bang for its buck. At opening it was the most expensive attraction to date, at $16 million. It is a huge crowd pleaser and can be enjoyed by nearly everybody. It does have the classic Disney qualities that people expect. And it would be a very inexpensive addition which would patially fix many of the problems that have recently arisen with Hong Kong. Pooh pleases very few, and is not what people would expect from Disney, since it did replace a Disney quality attraction. It also had a very high price tag, at over $30 million. If Disney took all of the little details into consideration, they could see that the installation of one attraction was a fantastic investment, while the other actually hurt the park. I used the comparision, because a new Big Thunder would be a great addition. Raging Spirits wouldn't do any better than Pooh. The company needs to learn from the many mistakes in its recent history. If they did, they would save a lot of money and time, and would once again have the respect of their guests. Instead, the cheap attractions are noticeable by everyone. And the Disney machine causes these "cheap" attractions to have inflated prices. In the end, nothing is saved, while guests experieriences take a hit. In short, exactly what I said earlier, Big Thunder is an inexpensive attraction that pleases nearly everyone. Disney needs to stop creating these rides that segregate large groups of people, and add nothing to the overall theme park experience.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Remember Brigman - BTM was $16m in the mid 70's. With inflation that's probably more like $100m now. Agreed that it is better choice than RS, but please don't kid yourself that it is cheap. Excellent Value? Definately. Cheap? Not on your nelly.
Originally Posted By Westsider Big Thunder Mountain opened at Disneyland in September, 1979. If it cost 16 Million in 1979 dollars, the online inflation calculator says that would be 45 Million in 2005 dollars. 45 Million for a Big Thunder Mountain sounds like a steal. Of course, WDI makes things much more expensively now. You should hear the stories about the daily catered lunches and the weekly Friday barbeques the WDI guys charged to their expense accounts while building Tower of Terror in '03/04! WDI spends money like it's going out of style, and plenty of that money is spent on stuff that no Guest will ever see and no Cast Member will ever touch. It all goes to a very lavish expense account lifestyle, with endless food and liquor, and plenty of cushy extras and luxuries thrown around. Using the 2005 way of doing business WDI-style, I would say a new Big Thunder would cost around 80 or 90 Million. Someone has to pay for all of those Lexus' and BMW's in the WDI parking lot.
Originally Posted By jmuboy Westsider - if you're right (and I generally take your word as fact) then it's no wonder WDC wants to pair back WDI and thier rediculous spending habits.
Originally Posted By BrigmanMT 2 And I'm sure once those Imagineers are working in their own setups, they would never spend so much cash. This happens because Disney allows it to happen. It sounds like a management problem, and it would get fixed in just about every other large company in the country when the first expense report debuts. I was thinking Big Thunder would probably come out at around $40 million, so $45 seems right. Unfortuantely concrete is more expensive today (maybe not in china), the mountain itself however should be cheaper to design. In those days it was only the third mountain Disney had ever created (next to the Matterhorn and Cascade peak), today, along with the aid of computers, they should be seasoned veterans.
Originally Posted By SuperDry I don't mean to in any way defend excesses at WDI. Having said that, I would point out that corporate accounting methods and modern management methodology at many companies have changed dramatically since the 1970's. Specifically, everything has to be assigned to a "cost center." So, the cost today from WDI to other divisions of the company almost certainly includes all sorts of overhead, including apportioned costs of salaried employees, benefits, the cost of the offices and R&D facilities, and all sorts of other things that may not have been charged against other divisions of WDC in the 70's. Is there someone around here that knows specifics about this and can comment? <<< And I'm sure once those Imagineers are working in their own setups, they would never spend so much cash. This happens because Disney allows it to happen. It sounds like a management problem, and it would get fixed in just about every other large company in the country when the first expense report debuts. >>> This is exactly why there's so much outsourcing these days. Among other things, it's very expensive for a major corporation to hire salaried employees. Also, other things have to be done differently (i.e. more expensively) because a large company is such an attractive target for lawsuits. These modern accounting and management methods are swords that cut both ways. In addition to identifying and cutting waste, they often cause odd if not sometimes ridiculous decisions to be made just so that somebody's cost center can be kept within a certain parameter. I think we've seen a lot of this sort of thing happening at DL in the past 10 years.
Originally Posted By Westsider >>"Westsider - if you're right (and I generally take your word as fact) then it's no wonder WDC wants to pair back WDI and thier rediculous spending habits"<< Where to start!? Read on only if you are truly interested in WDI waste, ego and arrogance from an Attractions Operations Cast Member perspective. During DCA's construction in 2000, every Friday was "BBQ Day" for the WDI crews working on the site. They would set up big barrel barbeque grills in the early afternoon, and the wagon train would begin. There would be coolers of Heineken and Corona set up, and it burgers, dogs, salads, deserts and all the fixin's were laid out for all WDI employees to enjoy. This was a standard Friday occurence, it wasn't anything unusual. The food and layout was provided by a catering service contracted by WDI, and work ended early on Friday so the party could begin. And at any time during the week one of the more senior Imagineers would place an order in for 1000 bucks or so of ribs and food at the Tony Roma's across Harbor Blvd. These rib lunches were aimed at smaller teams rather than the entire site, for example just the WDI crew working on Soarin' or Grizzly or a particular area would get a Tony Roma's lunch on the house. A big rib lunch for 15 or 20 people can add up quickly, and tabs of one thousand dollars or so were simply charged to WDI Gold Amex expense accounts. It was most noticeable during DCA's construction because this expense account lifestyle was playing out on a massive scale. The same thing happened on a smaller scale during Tower of Terror's construction. I have no doubt it's going on to an even lesser degree on the Monsters Inc. project with it's smallish WDI staff. And I'm sure the Submarines will have it's share of decadent WDI overspending once that project really gets rolling with a full WDI staff on site. WDI would have these catered events in full view of the Operations CM's working on testing the rides and locations these Imagineers were building. The Operations folks were never invited, with the exception of a few rare occasions when some Tony Roma's was handed on a plate to a particularly well liked Operations CM. The Operations managers were also not invited, and they definitely stayed away as they were extremely jealous of the budgets and perks the WDI guys got. However, some of the WDI folks can be quite arrogant, and look down on the Operations CM's as the hired help and wouldn't dare ask them to join in the lunch or party. I know of several friends who went over to help open DCA, and some of the Imagineers working side by side these CM's for weeks at a time never bothered to learn the CM's names. When an Imagineer wanted an Operations CM to do something on the Grizzly River Run turntable, they would say "Operator! I need the table turned on." For many WDI folks they simply call hourly Attractions Operations CM's "operator", even though we all wear nametags. There were two WDI guys in particular working on the Grizzly project who were notoriously snotty to the Operations CM's, and were constantly barking out requests to the unnamed "operator!". (I know of one CM who finally had enough with these two guys and went off on one of them in the summer of 2000 at the DCA project. After being called "operator!" for the third week in a row by the same Imagineer, he marched up to the guy and said "My name is JIM! I wear a nametag and I've been working with you for several weeks! If you need me to do something, call me JIM not 'operator'!". This WDI guy was reported to be furious that an Operations CM would go off on him like that, and then made it a point to continue calling this CM "operator" for another couple weeks until that CM finally moved over to help at Soarin'. He never once called him by his name.) That's an extreme example of the arrogance and ego in WDI, but it happened regularly during the DCA construction period. I've heard some of the WDI folks are very nice to the Operations CM's, and some Imagineers began their Disney career working in Operations in one of the parks. But even the pleasant ones to be around can have plenty of ego and diva attitude. But aside from the daily/weekly catering and lunches, WDI is most famous for it's massive and expensive parties when a project is completed. WDI had a HUGE one for the big DCA team and their spouses in January, '01 with catering and entertainment tabs that had to run in the hundreds of thousands (think top-shelf martini bars set up in giant ice sculptures built around neon artwork, endless platters of trendy food served by tuxedoed waiters, live bands and go-go girls, custom made party favors, etc., etc.) Obviously opening an entire new park offers the opportunity for a massive party, but they have these big "project parties" before every major attraction or Park addition opens. Tower of Terror had one that was very lavish, and I'm sure Subs will have one too. WDI staff also receive expensive gifts and mementos for each project they are involved with. During the creation of DCA, the WDI folks all were given custom made leather lettermans jackets for being part of the project. Lettermans jackets are the standard project knick-knack given out once the project gets off the ground, but there are often other chotchkies and souvenirs created for the WDI staff during a project's run. It all adds up. Seeing how WDI parties and celebrates itself with big-budget events, you would think they were oil executives in charge of multi-billion dollar corporations. What is interesting however is the disparity between the way WDI spends money on itself, and the way the Park Operations departments spend money on itself. In theory, Park Operations is WDI's "client", since the new ride is being built so Operations can run it and Facilities can maintain it for the next 40 years. The Operations CM's, even the salaried management, working on opening DCA during the 2000 to January, 2001 period weren't given one single thing as a memento. There was simply no money available in Operations budget to give anyone anything; not a coffee mug or a t-shirt or so much as a trip to McDonalds. That type of expenditure simply doesn't exist for Operations, even when the project is as momentous as opening an entirely new theme park. (This has begun to change, as the opening crew of Space Mountain were given Space Mountain windbreakers. From what I've heard, it's because Greg Emmer has arrived and was an Attractions Host himself at Disneyland in the 1960's. He remembers the perks and niceties given to CM's back then, and is trying to carve out a small budget for extras for opening crew members on E Ticket attractions. It's a step in the right direction.) Certainly there are a couple of Resort-wide events that happen each year, like the Christmas party in December and Cast Blast in the Spring. But those events are extremely modest in scale and scope. Guests at the Christmas Party still have to pay for food that evening, and standing in a long line snaking out of the Plaza Inn doesn't really create a very luxurious or "catered" vibe. The one lone freebie at the Christmas Party is at the end of the night, where they give you your plastic Christmas Tree ornament. Plus Michael Eisner usually stands in the tunnel under the train station handing out little candy canes at the beginning of the party. Otherwise the Christmas Party is just a night in the Park without having to use your Main Gate Pass to sign yourself in. The Spring Cast Blast is another low-budget event, with the food supplied ususally consisting of free popcorn or churro's served from ODV carts, and big coolers of canned Coke. The free snacks are nice, but it's like eating leftovers in Steerage compared to the First Class catering WDI gets at all of their events and parties. As a final example, on Thursday the Westside Attractions group is having an end-of-summer thank you party after the Park closes. There will be sheet cake and punch served on paper plates and cups on the Tiki Room lanai, and the managers and Leads are going to organize some party games for the Cast Members. The entire budget is only a couple hundred dollars, and I know our managers are bringing in stuff from home on their own dime to try and make the party better. That's about all Westside Attractions can expect to get money-wise for an end of summer thank you party, and it's the thought that really counts. (We're a little family darnit, and after one hell of a 50th summer you can bet there will be plenty of heart in that cheap sheet cake and watered down punch) But I can't help but think what the money from just one lunch run to Tony Roma's expensed on a WDI Gold Amex card could do for our little thank you party on Thursday. I suppose WDI should be happy that they still have the huge budgets to get all of the perks and luxury items tacked on to their projects. For the most part WDI does wonderful work and has a proud history behind it, and they certainly deserve weekly catered lunches, custom letterman's jackets, and splashy martini parties at a project's completion. But when money is so very tight in the other Disney divisions that they consider their clients, I would think they would be a bit embarassed at all of their excess and waste. And it wouldn't hurt their image around Anaheim if they stopped calling the Attraction CM's working the rides they designed by the insulting moniker of "operator!". The ego and excess of WDI will catch up to them one day, if it isn't already doing so now.
Originally Posted By SuperDry Westsider, that was a great post. Isn't it fascinating how different the various corporate cultures can be, even within divisions of the same company? I've seen it myself in several different situations (not all of them expense related), and I'm sure there's a whole field of study in sociology dealing with corporate culture. It's sad to hear anytime someone within WDC that has something to do with Theme Parks seems out of touch with the CM's that deliver the magic on the front lines day in and day out. It makes you wonder if there should be some sort of requirement that all people must work in the parks on stage for some period of time so that they understand what it's all about.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I'm afraid that's the breaks of corporate life. Both sides can never understand each other. In my field - I used to work operations, then into ops management and now I'm exec in a strategic area. Truth be told, execs and senior people have a lot more risks/issues/sacrifices than hourly employees. What you might have seen is the expense account life style, BBQ's, Lunches etc. But you did not see the 36 hour work days to get a project through, the strain on family life, the career risks etc. If an hourly screws up, they can get another job elsewhere. If a professional or specialist screws up, career over! I'm not saying that I don't agree with the behaviour of some of the divs, but truth be told, benefits are commenserate with risks. Pros are paid for results, not on hours. And you cannot compare the two.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "I'm not saying that I don't agree with the behaviour of some of the divs" Should read - I'm not saying I agree... and divas not divs. I better get back to work. BTW - execs don't get overtime, they get food!
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "BTW - execs don't get overtime, they get food!" Actually, that's a good point. The thing about salaried positions is that you don't get overtime. So, working a 60 hour work week means your pay gets spread out over those hours and it might end up amounting to minimum wage. So, the "perks" are sometimes there to offset that. The diva attitudes shouldn't be there, but I can understand having the perks since you get nothing for busting your back for 60 hours a week.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <This is exactly why there's so much outsourcing these days. Among other things, it's very expensive for a major corporation to hire salaried employees. Also, other things have to be done differently (i.e. more expensively) because a large company is such an attractive target for lawsuits> Just FYI -- this is what I do for a living at an extremely large corporation -- it falls under the heading of Organization Development now -- You are exaclty right in that no corporation is taking much full time regular headcount on today unless that said headcount directly generates revenues in excess of the total cost of their employment. ( read Sales/marketing here) -. Also the plan is to hae that person in employ for a max of 5 - 7 years and then 'encourage' them by many different means to seek other opportunities elsewhere. The cost of a full time regular employee today is so heavily weighed by the health care costs and IT/location costs that for rule of thumb you can almost double the salary for the fully burdened cost to a department/profit center. That is why you see the large increase in work at home white collar workers, it helps some. The type of employment you see now falls under a general heading of Shared Services.( if you google this term you will be stunned). Many of the workers for a corporation now belong to other companies that began life as wholey owned subsidiaries of the original corporation or some other corp. in the industry. First comes outsouring/ off shoring of certain positions to save money, then movement of higher paid, non revenue producing people ( overhead in accounting terms) - - and their sills. They form a subsidiary with skills to support the parent-- but eventually are cut loose to supply work for whoever wants to pay for it. Thus you end up with these skilled labor forces, that can do the job most of the time, but have no loyalty to any one company, therefore the passion is gone. This phenomenon - Shared Services started last decade in the UK and has spread like wildfire....it keeps parent company costs down as they only pay for what they need at a given time...yet what suffers is customer satsfaction and the ability to turn on a dime within the parent company. I am not judging any company here-- jut giving facts to try and explain why a company that ran like Disney -- and the WDI portions, will never be the same as they once were. In many ways it is very sad.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed. I work for a "Shared Services" company. And it is a lot of fun. But people feel loyalty to the projects they have as stakeholders, and they are focused on delivery and revenue recognition. It's very sad, but this is the way the world is moving. Because of these trends, it is vital to engauge the very best people in a work package, and in doing so, it is essential to sweaten the deal with hospitality.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 davewasbaloo -- you are all over this one--- in the states the average exempt employee works approx 12% over and above the scheduled hours. However with much work I have been involved with I find this number os extremely flawed. The reason this number is flawed is that most HR departments purposely keep NO records on exempt hours worked...and for good reason. In the US certain mandates after 12 hours per day for comp. time and break time etc could come into play. Informally when I have seen studies where management in general works an average of 50 - 52 hours per week. To share a personal story - way back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I became a brand new manager... I worked about the same number of hours per week as I did in my previous job... about 52. The difference was the loss of overtime pay compensation. Even with a substantial increase in pay for the new role-- it took 2+ years ( and 2 more increases ) before I made the same money per year I had been making.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Agreed. I work for a "Shared Services" company. And it is a lot of fun. But people feel loyalty to the projects they have as stakeholders, and they are focused on delivery and revenue recognition. It's very sad, but this is the way the world is moving< I am considered the shared services expert in my company and I admit I am still learning. I covered this in grad school and have gone to seminars -- I traveled to an auto manufacturing group in Sweden to study this phenomenon about 6 -7 years ago. Itis a major change in the way the world does business. Another examples are major 'call centers' inplaces like Bangalore & Bratislava -- that service many many companies, but as you said only have loyalty to any one if they are on a project. For day to day work, it doesn't matter who the parent company is. \ The whole pride in ownership thing has taken a huge hit. When you buy a product from xxx company, indeed many times they are not muchmore than a holding company for financial interests. You hate to think of Disney going that direction, but in order to survive, they will.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Sounds about right. My BIL left school at 15 and is a forklift driver. I went to college, post grad studies, management training and Project Management certification of practice. He was earning more than me until only about 3 years ago. Thankfully I use my brain for a living and my salary potential will only continue to rise. My BIL is now stagnating at the age of 27.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo It's so true VBDad. I love my role in the Business Development Team because we are paid to innovate, and I get my hands into lots of juicy projects, work with interesting people across the globe, and love the variety. However, my team is not the norm. So many people in my company are risk averse and they do not innovate. The days of innovation, whether in IT, Imagineering or the automotive industry, seem to either be individuals taking their own risks with their dreams or in developing economies of India and China. I feel proud that I am allowed to take risks, and I am paid to think outside the box. Even if I work 65 - 70 hour weeks on average. But if I screw up as a specialist in the Social Care market place, I can kiss my career goodbye. Therefore, if hourly cast members wonder why WDI have BBQ's, it's for a similar reason. We don't see our families as often as ops. We are in a niche area, with high stress, in a rapidly changing environment. Ops work is not easy (i've had my share of flipping burgers, bussing tables, stocking shelves), but in these high flyer roles, the stakes are much higher. If an operator screws up, it's likely to be a slapped wrist. If an imagineer screws up - end of career. Hence the diva mentality. I don't excuse it though. On average I am in 9 different localities a week, work with a team of 5000 in total, and work an average of 13 hours a day. I don't always remember everyone's name, and I feel like I've earn't my expense account dinner. However, if I ever have a slice of pizza left over, I will always ask the ops guy if he wants a slice, the receptionist will be asked about their kids, and I will hold the door open for anyone. People are different. Jobs are different. And perks are different. End of story - doesn't matter whether you are WDI, Ford, or Microsoft.
