Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<To add to post 137, look at DL Paris for example (Big Thunder, Main St Arcades, Phantom Manor, Pirates, Space Mt) to see examples of Disney taking rides to the next level and making them EVEN better.>> Well, I thought that is what has been done with Jungle Cruise? I keep hearing how different and cool it is (it BETTER be!!!), so does anyone know if this is true or not?
Originally Posted By trekkeruss I still say, wait and see. I am not going to be outraged about a park I won't likely see anytime soon. Frankly, it scares me how some of you get so passionate about a place that isn't even open yet. instead of screaming about how bad it's gonna be, why not enjoy it for what it is... ESPECIALLY if you aren't even gonna be there, or have no immediate plans to visit? I for one am excited for this new park, low ride count and all. It's not like it'll be a static thing... the park *will* grow.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss One more thing: The last time Disney opened a new Disneyland, they poured their hearts, souls, and a TON of Imagineering and money into it. I am speaking of DLP, of course. What did it get them? Years of financial problems. So if you were sitting on the button, would you take a chance and make that same mistake again, or would you be a bit more cautious the next time' round?
Originally Posted By jmuboy WorldDisney - you're right. The Jungle Cruise will be a true e-ticket and really takes the JC concept into the 21st century just like.....(oh wait, that's the only real e-ticket ride they improved on....oh wait, there are only 2 etickts.)
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<I still say, wait and see.>> I did do that once....it was called DCA ;D. <<I am not going to be outraged about a park I won't likely see anytime soon. Frankly, it scares me how some of you get so passionate about a place that isn't even open yet. instead of screaming about how bad it's gonna be, why not enjoy it for what it is... ESPECIALLY if you aren't even gonna be there, or have no immediate plans to visit?>> Dude, I hear you I do. Again, I WILL visit the park and see it ALL for myself very, very soon . So yes, I'm shouting the high heavens here because 1. I think they COULD have done more with the attraction count and do think its shameful you open a theme park, ANY park with just 8 rides. Sorry, but that's just sad and 2. Well, it's FUN to discuss these things . As much as people hate to admit it, negativity or just having a critical opinion on something is WHAT drives internet boards. I just came off a movie board where people are already talking horribly about the Davinci Code movie even though I don't think one frame of the film has even been released yet, and unlike this park, that movie is a YEAR away. So, it's human nature to talk out of our you-know-what about things . Here though this isn't the case because we have SO much media already on it, from pics to press release, maps and etc, we have enough sources to have an OPINION about it, even if we can't make an ABSOLUTE one without seeing it for ourselves. Agree? Listen, I don't think HKDL is an AWFUL park or I wouldn't waste the time to go and see it for myself. I'm looking forward to it actually when I go either in September or November (and being back on the beach watching cute HK women, but that's for a different website ). I never really understand the "wait and see" idea though. We know, attractions wise, WHAT'S there. We seen HUNDREDS of pictures now of the place. Considering I have been on ALL these attractions already somewhere else minus 2-3, CLEARLY I can talk about that without having to have been litterally on them since I been ON them for decades now in all four MK parks. But I understand what you mean in the sense of the vibe, charm and etc. Of course, that's NOT what I'm talking about here. If anything, that's what is convincing me to GO in the first place . It's the lack of rides and how, once again, Disney is underestimating its public that I am talking about. I mean, most of my post, if negative, are talking about THOSE things and those things only. I don't have to be there for that I don't think. I get your point WELL, but I'm from the hood and was raised with my mouth open at ALL times. Here, I just do it with a keyboard lol.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney Jmuboy, why do YOU hate HKDL so much....maybe my long-lost brother? ;D
Originally Posted By jmuboy WorldDisney - I know you are being sarcastic but I want to clearify myself just in case. I don't hate HKDL. It's a beautiful park and WDI has done a TOP NOTCH job on everything that is there (for the most part). However, I won't be tricked into believing that 8 rides, a parade, fireworks and the liki tikis are a full day park! trekkeruss - if DLP was overdone by WDI, then they went the COMPLETE other direction with HKDL and spent too little - like an extreme knee jerk reaction.
Originally Posted By CMM1 trek: Good points. Disney folk aren't building HKDL to further the state of the art in the way they did with DLP or TDS - they're building a park that is essentially designed for an audience that, for the most part, has never been in a Disney park before. Is it perhaps not a bit ironic that, in the land of the "copy", that HKDL would be more of that kind of park as opposed to something new and ground-breaking? While those who travel the world to visit Disney parks and yearn for something completely new after gorging themselves on all that Disney has to offer to this point may be disappointed, there will undoubtedly be many guests from China and Southeast Asia who visit a Disney park for the first time that will find something as blase (to veteran Disney fans) as Main Street to be exciting, interesting and fun. Applying the same principle to the idea that the Autopia will be one of the first attractions added to the park, the same reasoning applies. Just because older Disney fans/veterans find the attraction uninteresting or boring doesn't mean that scores of kids in that end of the world won't be living out their fantasy of driving a car - for that matter, there are lots of adults that use public transportation almost exclusively that might find Autopia something exciting as well. Those Disney fans who yearn for new revisions of the theme park concept to be presented, they will at least have a different "Adventureland" - but for the bigger group of HKDL guests for whom the idea of "theme park" is completely new, will they not have a sense of wonder at these different "lands" complete with costumes and attractions? Disney brass obviously feel that they can get the ball rolling in HKDL with the slate of attractions they have, get some cash flow going and then can add new attractions as they move forward. The obvious lessons of DLP appear to still be a heavy influence and you can't blame them for being a bit conservative. So for those that want more, sit back and plan your trip to WDW where they will open Expedition:Everest and hold off from HKDL for a few years while they ramp up that park.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<trekkeruss - if DLP was overdone by WDI, then they went the COMPLETE other direction with HKDL and spent too little - like an extreme knee jerk reaction.>> Yep, EXACTLY!!! DLP is suffering because they spent too much (along with overcharging and waaay too many hotels in a HUGE tourist city that already has many less than 30 minutes away and CHEAPER) and DCA, WDSP is suffering because they spent too little....and now will have to spend the hundreds of millions of dollars ANYWAY to get more people in. There has GOT to be a middle ground somewhere!!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>There has GOT to be a middle ground somewhere!!<< Yes. It's in Tokyo right by Tokyo Bay...
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Disney folk aren't building HKDL to further the state of the art in the way they did with DLP or TDS - they're building a park that is essentially designed for an audience that, for the most part, has never been in a Disney park before. Is it perhaps not a bit ironic that, in the land of the "copy", that HKDL would be more of that kind of park as opposed to something new and ground-breaking?>> Yep, fully agree with that and stated that in post #140 on this thread: "I agree, it's not so much about uniqueness or originality with this park and its attractions, but it IS about them being GOOD and ENOUGH of them ." Again, THAT'S the main contention for most here. You are building a park where they supposedly expect 30,000 people for about 15 attractions. That's INSANE to me. "New market" or not, how do you expect to open a park and expect so many people to offer them so few attractions? Am I disappointed that they didn't have new, bold attractions? Sure I am. But do I understand why they don't, sure. I DON'T expect something like DCA to have so many clones of rides when the area is ALREADY full of them and there are other Disney parks in the country. China is brand new with people who never rode these rides, so that's understandable....to a degree. Again, its the NUMBER of attractions, clones, thrillers, dark rides, whatever that's the biggest concern for many. I think many people wouldn't mind waiting in a 2 hour line for a SM or even Buzz. But, most of the attractions are BASIC rides, just with Disney dressings. Sure, Disney classics, but a lot of spinners (wow, it's starting to sound like the DCA arguments again). To me, that's an issue. MAYBE it won't be for a lot of the guests who visit it, but human nature, culture or not, always dictates two things: You HATE paying too much for something and it's NEVER fun to stand in long lines . We'll have to see how much those holds up in the park .
Originally Posted By leemac <<>>There has GOT to be a middle ground somewhere!!<< Yes. It's in Tokyo right by Tokyo Bay... >> Please...a $2bn park is not middle ground.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<>>There has GOT to be a middle ground somewhere!!<< Yes. It's in Tokyo right by Tokyo Bay... >> <<Please...a $2bn park is not middle ground.>> LOL, I have to agree with that there .
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "Not really. How many shows does MK have now? Plus DL and DLP don't have off-season fireworks whilst HKDL will. These may seem minor to you but in a area where they have little idea who Mickey and Winnie-the-Pooh are these are important parts of their day." Well, you got me on MK, Lee. But that's a result of years of budget cuts. Let's not forget the Diamond Horseshoe is used as a meet/greet, whilst (trying to be a countryman here ) the Tomorrowland stage is only used at Christmas. Oh, and the Fantasy Faire stage used to showcase smaller shows before Disney made the Ariel meet&greet there. But your point is well-taken (and agreed with). Fireworks yearround? While I do think that adds something to the experience, I grew up with MK fireworks only during the summer, Spring Break and at Christmas, so I don't feel nightly firewoks are a must by any means. "I keep going back to this but to keep harping on about there needing to be uniqueness is just nonsense. Hardly any of the visitors (probably the lowest proportion of any guests visiting any other resort) will have been or even will know that much about Disneyland. The Disney fan in all of us would like something unique but beyond a very small handful of us who is going to be that bothered about uniqueness. Attraction count is a far more appropriate argument." I just hate agreeing with you, but I do. Attraction count is a more appropriate argument/glaring weakness. My concern with not having unique attractions harkens back to Walt's ideas of not repeating himself ... what did he say? 'You can't top pigs with pigs.' I don't want Disneylands on every corner. They aren't Burger Kings or Gaps. If Disney insists on being a theme park chain, I'd like to see things that make parks unique. Not everything. Not most things. Just a few.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "In rehearsals the parade itself was quite different (especially the music and choreography). It isn't one of the best TDL parades (Dreams on Parade wins hands-down) but it is all about the history of the Disney name and so is very appropriate for an audience who don't know that much about Walt and Mickey." I never saw it at TDL, so it will be new to me. I just don't like to see recycling of everything. Believe me, I think this parade may well be perfect for the audience. We'll see. But I'll bet you a Disney Dollar that if HK gets a nighttime parade it won't be a new one, but the 1970s Electrical Parade.
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "8 rides just don't cut it when you are trying to sell a Billion new customers on a future lifetime of Disneyland and the Walt Disney Company." Nope. It doesn't. No amount of natural beauty and atmosphere and PR spin will change that. "Well I kind of hear you. Though remember, in the golden envelope of Disney theme park development, they were always trying to take attractions to the next level, learning from previous experiences and developing for the benefits of all parks. With the possible exception of Philharmagic and Autopia, this does not seem to be the case any longer. For tis, I am truly saddened." If PhilharMagic (which I love) and Autopia (which I loathe but understand its place in a MK) are examples of Disney taking prior concepts to a higher level, I think I'm gonna need a stronger beverage right now! "Wow, you said it so much better then I ever could . You know, just use MY handle from now on when making these points. They will be much clearer and typed out as if by someone who is sober ." Thanks, WD. But what makes you think I'm sober? When Lee welcomed me to post, I suddenly realized alcohol might help (as well as steering clear of any DCA argument) numb some of the pain ;-) But I do try to make coherent and rational arguments even when the topic is say ---- why is the MK falling apart and why doesn't management care?
Originally Posted By LuvDatDisney "One more thing: The last time Disney opened a new Disneyland, they poured their hearts, souls, and a TON of Imagineering and money into it. I am speaking of DLP, of course. What did it get them? Years of financial problems. So if you were sitting on the button, would you take a chance and make that same mistake again, or would you be a bit more cautious the next time' round?" It's arguments like this that had me lurking for years and not posting to begin with. DLP (or Euro Disney as it was known) was not a financial failure due to building a lavish, modern, advanced new take on a MK. It failed because Michael Eisner's greed made them build three times as many resorts as they should have. It failed because Europeans didn't spend the amount of money on Disney trinkets that those in the states did. And it failed because it ignored basic local cultural elements (things as simple as not serving wine in the wine capital of the world.) People love to use the park (and often lead designer Tony Baxter) as the reason the place is still hemmorraging millions annually. Unfortunately, it's just plain wrong.
Originally Posted By trekkeruss <<DLP (or Euro Disney as it was known) was not a financial failure due to building a lavish, modern, advanced new take on a MK. It failed because Michael Eisner's greed made them build three times as many resorts as they should have.>> I am certainly familiar with the reasons why EuroDisney/Eurodisneyland/DLP failed, and yes, I agree it can't be laid on the park itself. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it was "greed" on Michael Eisner's part though. Overjealousness? Unfounded optimism? Poor research? Perhaps all of the above, but I wouldn't say greed... that's a bit slanderous to say, IMO. Anyway... the Disney Company of today isn't ready or willing to pull the trigger as far as Disney fans would like. That's the reality. You may not like it, but that's the way it is. All that can be done at this point is to watch, and play armchair imagineer/CEO.
