Originally Posted By Park Hopper <<Just to be crystal clear: there has been no muzzling. It is a matter of choice as I don't have much time to deal with the site at the moment and I have little to say on the matters I do say being discussed. I wouldn't read anything into my perceived absence.>> I can't speak as to the verasity of this statement but I will say it is interesting how this item seems to have been removed from "The Latest" list.
Originally Posted By Park Hopper My mistake. It's still there. I applogize for my misjudgement and for any offence I may have caused.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney This park has sucked from the day it opened and now it looks like it will suck for a few years to come. People of Hong Kong and mainland, if you want to experience a TRUE Disney experience, save your money and head on down to Tokyo instead . HKDL is a flop, the people (or government has spoken, which for communist China is close enough ). They don't even want to invest in their own park because they don't seem to think its even worth it at this point!! What else is there to say? Saying "I told you so" left me hoarse a long time ago.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: Well, for what it's worth, World Disney, duckling, your Cauldron girls were right beside you in support of your opinions the whole time. ORWEN: The thing I can't help wondering is whether or not the fate of Hong Kong Disneyland is going to be the same as Nara Dreamland's? I'm too scared to try and conjur up the future inside the crystal ball, for fear of what I might see!
Originally Posted By dl1956 Just a thought: maybe this is part of some hardball haggling going on behind the scenes as to who shells out the most $$HK? Anybody have some info?
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: My sisters and I are beginning to wonder the same thing. Surely this little park isn't really going to be abandoned altogether. Perhaps a brighter tomorrow is on the horizon. ORWEN: Somewhere over the rainbow--way up high--where troubles melt like lemon drops and pirates lick on lollipops; if happy little sparrows fly beyond the rainbow why, oh why, can't Jack?
Originally Posted By FerretAfros If they do threaten to just close it (unlikely any time soon), I say we get the online Disney fan community to buy the park. It would be kept up to great standards, and would be great to visit. Sure, it would probably be torture designing any sort of new attraction or special evens, but it would totally be worth it. (I feel like Western River Expedition and Horizions would be among the first things built...)
Originally Posted By Pirate Mickey >>...the park is just going to piddle along with mediocre attendence for another decade until a new administration (or a real one) comes in and decides to really fix the problem. Either that, or it could become the first Disney park to close.<< That's what Eisner and now Iger wanted. A Disneyland in every country, but if they don't want to put the money into it then why bother? Is every new Disney park going to be as bad as DCA? This is more of "Disney declining by degrees." There was a Disney store in almost every big city, 100's all over the world, and we all know what a big failure that was thanks to Eisner.
Originally Posted By pierrot I'm not someone in the know but I sort of agree that the HK govt shouldn't invest huge $$$ in the expansion, leave it to Disney please. After all the mess Disney has created and the arrogance Disney displays, people in HK are losing faith. All HK citizens are shareholders of the park (where did you think the $$$ came from when the govt made its investment?) yet what Disney's been doing is to take take and take. The Govt provided the land, infrastructure, and $$$ to phase I development, but Disney decided to build a half-day park. In that sense I think Disney should take the responsibilities to fund phase II expansion on its own. As an honest taxpayer in HK, I'd rather the Govt spend its money helping people or organisation that are more in need.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney ^^^I agree with that 100% pierrot. We know they SHOULD do it, but what do they care?? They invested what, $300 total for it. They invest more in a few movie flops every year and barely blink. No skin off their backs. They could just move on and build another half day park somewhere else, if its sucessful, get the glory in the profit, if it fails, they put so little money in it, they are bound to get SOMETHING back!! And honestly, sorry, but you have to blame the HK government who were willing to jump through all kinds of hoops to get a Disney theme park without questioning the investment a little more. THEY should've demanded more upfront from the beginning. I know very, very little about finaces and economics, but you don't have to have graduated from Waldorf school of business to know they were getting a very bad end. Disney probably either has made or will make its back end no problem. THEY don't have to worry about trying to make the park a sucess to get anything out of it. Its HK that does and what's even worse is that the people of Hong Kong paid for the park and ironically, out of their apparent lack of interest for it, something that came out of their pockets might seal its doom.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<That's what Eisner and now Iger wanted. A Disneyland in every country, but if they don't want to put the money into it then why bother?>> EXACTLY!!!! People wonder why we shake our heads everytime we hear there is a rumor one is being built in Ghana or somewhere. I mean seriuosly, what IS the point of continually building these things if you build them so light to begin with and then basically don't bother to do anything significant for years on end? I mean for parks like DCA, WDSP and now HKDL, there SHOULD be a significant attraction built every 1-2 years, for 10 years on end. They shouldn't build these parks so desolate and then expect an audience who has been spoiled for decades all of a sudden are going to spend time at these half-day, under-developed parks!!! The fact that NONE of these parks reached their meagar first year attendance goals should tell them something!!! But, they keep building them, in total denial the last project flopped with their audience and the next one will be different. It's funny, out of ALL these new parks in the last five years, the only one that not reached it's attendance goals, but PASSED it was: Tokyo Disney Sea....imagine that . The HKDL current situation can only mean three things: 1. They built a park that is simply too small that the majority is not interested in paying to see. 2. They have built TOO many parks as it is, spreading their loayal customers to thin. If you have the money in Beijing to go to Hong Kong for a week, chances are you have the money to go to Tokyo for a week as well....and you get a resort 50 times better AND another country to explore. 3. The Chinese just aren't all that interested in the mouse....at least not enough to support something as expensive and grand as a Disney park. Maybe if they decided to build DLP instead of HKDL and no one showed up for that one, the conversation would be much different I suppose, but maybe the Chinese just doesn't understand the appeal and frankly Disney hasn't given them a HUGE reason why its so great!! Although it's the nicest looking theme park in China with impressive grounds and hotels, it's still cost TWICE as much as the local park, Ocean Park, but half as much to do. Doesn't bold well for someone who don't understand why they should fall all over themselves for Space Mountain . There is a fourth option: Maybe all of the above, but who knows? Maybe if Disney just add more trees, the Chinese will go crazy again and go back to just take more pictures!!! (LOL, remember THAT silly argument )
Originally Posted By tcsnwhite I highly, highly doubt Disney would EVER close one of their parks. What that would do to their public image and reputation is something that they will never allow to happen. Honestly, Disney has far, far, far too much pride (and arrogance) to ever allow the world to see that they failed on something as huge as a theme park resort. But what is Disney going to do? I have no clue. The ONLY way they are going to make that resort a success is to continually invest in new attractions, shows, parades, and other entertainment. NO doubt about it. People say why invest in something that people are not coming to see? Why risk it? Well, this business is nothing BUT risk, and if they are not willing to create entertainment and attractions that are signature Disney and take it to the highest level, than the folks are not going to be clamoring to get in everyday. Those big signature attractions are the ones we know Disney can do that would wipe the competition in HK clean, and they are the kind that would not only attract crowds through proper, great marketing, but by word of mouth. This is the ONLY way I see it can be done. Where I also think the responsibility lies is at leadership- particularly within Parks and Resorts. Yes, in the end, HK has to approve and fund- and if they are NOT willing to do so, then having them in charge of the resort was a mistake and Disney needs to re-negogiate that business situation. If HK will not open up their funds for expansion, I see no other way than Disney themselves having to open up their wallet and spend the money themselves (which is highly unlikely, sadly). But like I said, it goes back to leadership. If HK got into an even worse situation than it is now, and P&R leadership could not properly fix that, than it is high time Bob re-organize leadership within P&R. I want to see him stick to his word, that every business unit has to take responsibility for their sucesses, and failures. In the end, I also believe Disney's greatest mistake goes back to again, not listening to Walt- LISTEN TO YOU AUDIENCE! They needs to listen to what the people want, expect, and are also willing to pay for. If they continue to not do so, they insult the customer...and then guess what, the customer is not going to show up! Anyway, I didn't mean to write such an essay. Overall, at this time, I think we are all being a big overly dramatic in this thread. I don't think it's quite time for that yet...but hey, to each his own. =)
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Just to be crystal clear: there has been no muzzling. It is a matter of choice as I don't have much time to deal with the site at the moment and I have little to say on the matters I do say being discussed. I wouldn't read anything into my perceived absence.>> Lee, old bud! You're alive and well (I hope!) What makes you think I was talking about you? ;-) What do they say, oh yeah, silence often speaks much louder than words. But since I love words, are you saying this information is true, false, you don't know or you don't care? I, obviously, feel failure to invest (and reinvest) in parks has been a major flaw in TWDC corporate mindset since the mid-90s. To be like a petulant child and demand that people accept half-baked, half-built and half-arsed (notice, I used the queen's English) parks is a very curious mindset when it has been proven to be a very fatally flawed model of doing business. But what do I know?
Originally Posted By leemac <<Lee, old bud! You're alive and well (I hope!)>> Alive, well but working hard. These are busy times. Thanks for asking. <<But since I love words, are you saying this information is true, false, you don't know or you don't care?>> How about I do know but don't care to share? I would only suggest you look at LP's history of information reliability to hazard a guess as to which camp this news falls into. All I will say is that people who think this is a black-and-white issue (ie. to invest or not to invest further) don't understand the complexities that the Company has to deal with in its overseas partners (whether it be EuroDisney S.C.A., Hong Kong International Theme Parks Limited or Oriental Land Company, Limited). It isn't just a question of the Company saying "We are doing this with or without you". All parties have their own POV on the matter and it is about reaching the right consensus. The Disney representatives responsible for HKDL (both on the creative and non-creative sides) are committed to the future development of the resort. The additions this summer such as Mickey's Waterworks (which is a great Steven Davison-produced parade with a very catchy song called Big Splash by Sunny Hilden) and the Animation Academy will help in the same way that Stitch Encounter, UFO Zone and Autopia did last summer.
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORGOCH: Yeah, that dang UFO Zone 'n Stitchie's Encounter really made attendance soar, didn't it? ORWEN: The Autopia was the only attraction--out of those 3--that really seems to be popular. ORDDU: I could imagine that IT'S A SMALL WORLD will be very popular over there. Attendance might jump a little when THAT opens. But what happens next? If they aren't planning something more spectacular, now, we smell another Nara Dreamland situation.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<All I will say is that people who think this is a black-and-white issue (ie. to invest or not to invest further) don't understand the complexities that the Company has to deal with in its overseas partners (whether it be EuroDisney S.C.A., Hong Kong International Theme Parks Limited or Oriental Land Company, Limited). It isn't just a question of the Company saying "We are doing this with or without you". All parties have their own POV on the matter and it is about reaching the right consensus.>> I agree with that 100%, but this issue is bad because the HK government got a shoddy deal to begin with and they realize it. From THEIR POV, they did most of the leg work, put up the most money, but losing out on most of the profit, why shouldn't Disney step up a little more from their POV? But, it just shows when you build something half-you-know-what, you shouldn't expect the result and response to be any different .
Originally Posted By Witches of Morva ORDDU: If Walt Disney were alive, at the moment, this entire matter would truly embarrass and depress him--as would so many of the OTHER blunders current and recently past managment is guilty of. They certainly don't deserve to be defended by any of their poor decisions regarding this latest fiasco. Until they learn from past mistakes, they'll just keep making them over and over again.
Originally Posted By mrichmondj << Until they learn from past mistakes, they'll just keep making them over and over again. >> This statement is ridiculous considering that HKDL's ownership and financial structure was based entirely from lessons learned in past overseas parks. Rather than take a majority interest, like DLP, Disney is a minority owner in HKDL. This is the same structure that has worked successfully in Japan. Also, rather than overbuild an expensive park with too many resorts, as they did in Paris, Disney started out with a much smaller Magic Kingdom style park and only 2 hotels. Again, this is more like the way TDL started in comparison to the less finanically successful DLP. To say that past mistakes weren't learned from isn't a true statement at all. I would offer that maybe they applied lessons learned from past mistakes without complete regard for how those lessons applied to the current situation at hand. It was over 10 years since DLP, and Europe is an entirely different market than China.
