Latest: Hong Kong Disneyland's Pirates Project is

Originally Posted By SuperDry

<<< Rather than take a majority interest, like DLP, Disney is a minority owner in HKDL. This is the same structure that has worked successfully in Japan. >>>

I think you have some of your facts wrong. Disney's ownership of DLP was 49% initially, and has fallen to 39%, which is not too far from the 43% ownership in HKDL. Disney's ownership of Tokyo Disneyland started out at 0% and remains 0%. Also, Disney has the management contract for DLP as well as HKDL, but does not for TDR.

The ownership and management deals for HKDL are quite similar to that of DLP, and are drastically different than those for TDR.

As far as "learning from past mistakes," they certainly did learn from DLP and DCA in a sense: they didn't over-build hotels (but have room to add a third hotel and to double the number of rooms at the existing hotels), and they didn't build a park where cost-cutting was accomplished by building everything out in a half-baked fashion.

It seems apparent to me that they were once again caught off-guard by their inability to do things on the cheap and not have anyone notice. Although, things are now blamed on "marketing problems." It could be that even if the chances of success with a proper build-out were high, the risk is too great to take. If this is the case, we may never see a new resort built in the way that we think of them today.

 

Originally Posted By mrichmondj

<< I think you have some of your facts wrong. Disney's ownership of DLP was 49% initially, and has fallen to 39%, which is not too far from the 43% ownership in HKDL. Disney's ownership of Tokyo Disneyland started out at 0% and remains 0%. Also, Disney has the management contract for DLP as well as HKDL, but does not for TDR. >>

Thanks for the clarifications SuperDry. They are more correct than my generalizations. Disney does maintain management control at DLP, even with the minority equity interests owned in 1992 and after the subsequent re-financing deals that lowered the equity interests. I had forgotten that Disney never had a stake in TDL. The original plans called for them having a 20% stake in the project, but after the expenses for EPCOT went through the roof, they couldn't afford it and re-negotiated for the royalties deal.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<Alive, well but working hard. These are busy times. Thanks for asking.>>

Glad to hear it.

I can appreciate the busy part very much.
I am very tired of spending so much time coming and going.

But you are missed here. Seriously!

I, for one, may not agree with you on some major points but I enjoy bantering and the fact you are an intelligent, articulate person. It's just not as much fun without you to kick ar... I mean, around

<<But since I love words, are you saying this information is true, false, you don't know or you don't care?>>

<<How about I do know but don't care to share? I would only suggest you look at LP's history of information reliability to hazard a guess as to which camp this news falls into.>>

Based upon that, I'd say the info is rather reliable, which is a shame for many reasons.

I hope this doesn't mean the end of Tim Delaney's run at WDI.

<<All I will say is that people who think this is a black-and-white issue (ie. to invest or not to invest further) don't understand the complexities that the Company has to deal with in its overseas partners (whether it be EuroDisney S.C.A., Hong Kong International Theme Parks Limited or Oriental Land Company, Limited). It isn't just a question of the Company saying "We are doing this with or without you". All parties have their own POV on the matter and it is about reaching the right consensus.>>


Oh, I do understand, believe me. I understand many of the issues between Disney and the Chinese government on the DOA Shanghai project quite well.

As far as the Pirates Cove/Adventureland expansion though, my only comment is that I understand why the government doesn't want to give Disney more money. I think this is a case where Disney must use its own money and get this expansion built yesterday.

This Michael Eisner gunshy after Euro Disney hangover needs to go. Pronto.

It didn't work with DAK (hence all the great new additions). It didn't work with DCA (hence the hundreds of millions spent already the hundreds of millions more that are about to). And it didn't work with DSP (hence the 'placemaking', ToT, Toon Studios, Stitch etc...)

To assume it was going to work in China was arrogance at its most capricious.

Of course, I could be wrong ... maybe the Liki Tikis and City Hall and the rafts to Tarzan's Treehouse all are legit 'attractions.'

<<The Disney representatives responsible for HKDL (both on the creative and non-creative sides) are committed to the future development of the resort. The additions this summer such as Mickey's Waterworks (which is a great Steven Davison-produced parade with a very catchy song called Big Splash by Sunny Hilden) and the Animation Academy will help in the same way that Stitch Encounter, UFO Zone and Autopia did last summer. >>

Yes. I'm sure they will. They'll help in the same small-scale way the aforementioned attractions did.

It's not the same as what the Pirates area would/could do ... when did Disney stop realizing you have to spend money on parks to make more money?

Oh yeah, about the time a helicopter went down in the mountains.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<As far as "learning from past mistakes," they certainly did learn from DLP and DCA in a sense: they didn't over-build hotels (but have room to add a third hotel and to double the number of rooms at the existing hotels), and they didn't build a park where cost-cutting was accomplished by building everything out in a half-baked fashion.>>

Even though I agree with you, one spirit could point out that DLP now has very little trouble filling its rooms and that DL is actually woefully short on Disney-branded rooms, something that's about to change.

Yet, they still don't learn from their mistakes.

WDW has been overbuilt since the mid-90s, yet Disney keeps plugging away ... now we'll have a Four Seasons (to keep the Prince happy and give WDW a legit shot at a real true 5-star property) and we'll have even more cheap, basic, no-frills rooms to make 192 a ghost town.

<<It seems apparent to me that they were once again caught off-guard by their inability to do things on the cheap and not have anyone notice. Although, things are now blamed on "marketing problems." It could be that even if the chances of success with a proper build-out were high, the risk is too great to take. If this is the case, we may never see a new resort built in the way that we think of them today.>>

We certainly won't until the mindset at parks and resorts change. That won't happen until Jay Rasulo and all his puppet execs are replaced with creative, visionary types who aren't afraid of risk and see things in the long term not the next six months.

 

Originally Posted By SuperDry

<<< one spirit could point out that DLP now has very little trouble filling its rooms >>>

[Not meaning to disagree with you, but just comment further] Well that's just great, after some 15 years of debt service.

<<< now we'll have a Four Seasons (to keep the Prince happy and give WDW a legit shot at a real true 5-star property) >>>

As I've covered in the WDW threads, I don't think that the 4S construction at WDW is at all out of line. Last month, I had the opportunity to stay at a full-service, off-site resort very near WDW followed immediately by an on-site stay, and I have lots and lots to say about the experience, and will do so when I get around to it. It's all basically in line with what I've already said in the Four Seasons thread in the WDW section.

 

Originally Posted By leemac

<<But you are missed here. Seriously!

I, for one, may not agree with you on some major points but I enjoy bantering and the fact you are an intelligent, articulate person. It's just not as much fun without you to kick ar... I mean, around >>

Thanks for the kind words.

A lot of it comes down to the same personalities saying the same stuff over and over again. I recently sneaked a peek at a DCA thread and it is the same people making the same comments from pre-February '01. It is tiring and tiresome at the same time.

<<I hope this doesn't mean the end of Tim Delaney's run at WDI.>>

It won't. Tim is a tremendous talent and he has a lot of champions in the Company. He also has some excellent ideas that are gaining traction. One particular idea could revolutionise the way we see most popular attractions (and correct what many people see as Fastpass' most significant faults). tim wasn't the only VP champion for this particular project and he continues to have other imagineers wanting to work with him. An eviable position that many of his colleagues (even those more senior) could learn from.

 

Originally Posted By leemac

<<Also, Disney has the management contract for DLP as well as HKDL, but does not for TDR.>>

I could write several long posts trying to explain that this statement is incorrect but I'm not sure I would articulate it particularly well. To state that the Company has no management contract in place at TDR isn't actually technically correct. It may not have the same operational control that it exerts over HKDLR and DLRP but it does have control through the execution of its IPR. WDAJ and its subsidiaries are effectively management consultants who are advising OLC on all aspects of its operations and guiding the Company through the implementation of its style guide (ie. the bible that governs how the Company's IPR can be utilised). You would be right in saying that the Company does not own any stake in OLC but to suggest it has no management oversight isn't entirely true. I always describe them as shadow managers. Even that doesn't quite capture what they do.

 

Originally Posted By SuperDry

<<< A lot of it comes down to the same personalities saying the same stuff over and over again. I recently sneaked a peek at a DCA thread and it is the same people making the same comments from pre-February '01. It is tiring and tiresome at the same time. >>>

I wasn't around LP on '01 (didn't find it until 2003), but from what other people have told me, what you say is certainly true, and it does get tiring to read the same thing over and over again. What I find absolutely fascinating is that of the people that one might categorize as being in the pro-DCA camp, the intervening 6 years and how they have unfolded seems to not have changed their positions in the least. And I don't mean their personal opinions and preferences as to whether they as an individual enjoy the park. Talk about having a story and stickin' to it!

 

Originally Posted By SuperDry

<<< <<Also, Disney has the management contract for DLP as well as HKDL, but does not for TDR.>>

I could write several long posts trying to explain that this statement is incorrect but I'm not sure I would articulate it particularly well. To state that the Company has no management contract in place at TDR isn't actually technically correct. It may not have the same operational control that it exerts over HKDLR and DLRP but it does have control through the execution of its IPR. WDAJ and its subsidiaries are effectively management consultants who are advising OLC on all aspects of its operations and guiding the Company through the implementation of its style guide (ie. the bible that governs how the Company's IPR can be utilised). You would be right in saying that the Company does not own any stake in OLC but to suggest it has no management oversight isn't entirely true. I always describe them as shadow managers. Even that doesn't quite capture what they do. >>>

I am aware of the situation as you describe it above, and did not mean to imply anything otherwise. Thanks for clarifying - you did a better job than I could have.

 

Originally Posted By gurgitoy2

"Rather than take a majority interest, like DLP, Disney is a minority owner in HKDL. This is the same structure that has worked successfully in Japan."

Not quite. Disney has no ownership stake in TDL. They have licensing agreements, and get 10% of admission and merchandise sales, but they have NO ownership stake in TDR.

Also, when TDL opened it was a lot more fleshed out than HKDL. They had quite a few of the signature attractions already at opening.

 

Originally Posted By gurgitoy2

Yeah, well, others beat me to it and did it better...serves me right for posting before reading ALL the posts in the thread, LOL! I know what Lee is saying about shadow management. Disney keeps a tight control of what OLC does with their properties, which is part of the licensing agreement, right/ I know they have a lot of say on what is done whith characters, attractions, events, etc. It's like Disney is an outside consultant providing guidelines...only OLC must comply or risk losing the license.

 

Originally Posted By Witches of Morva

ORDDU: Thank you, Spirt of 74, for understanding what mistakes current (along with recently past) management types at Disney continue to keep making. You have to give the public something worthwhile to spend their hard earned money on in order to keep them coming back. Since it was Mr. Pressler and Mr. Eisner who approved the initial plans for Hong Kong Disneyland, we're waiting to see what lessons Mr. Iger and Mr. Rasulo will learn--if any--for the purpose of rescuing this little park. Mr. Rasulo, in particular, doesn't seem to have learned anything from past mistakes. That's what WE consider to be ridiculous.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<Thanks for the kind words. >>

You're welcome. You know I'm just a big-hearted spirit at the core!

<<A lot of it comes down to the same personalities saying the same stuff over and over again. I recently sneaked a peek at a DCA thread and it is the same people making the same comments from pre-February '01. It is tiring and tiresome at the same time. >>

I understand that. The DCA board seems particularly repetitive because no one gives an inch and no one ever wants to see anything that contradicts their world view.

But threads like this are different.

I want to see HKDL improve. Hell, I just want my trip this year to get here already!

When I heard about the Adventureland expansion, what was being proposed, not to mention some of the talents at WDI working on it ... well, it got me excited. It's exactly the kind of thing HKDL needs ... heck, it's exactly the kind of project WDI needs. Big budget. Big scope. Big style.

That's what will drive attendance in HK.

I don't think the new parade, no matter how wonderful, or Animation Academy or even Small World will do that.

They are major.

Pirates ... that's major.

A whole Pirates mini-land with 21st century version of the attraction, other 'minor' attractions, dining, shopping and a venue for Fantasmic ... well, that ups the ante quite a bit. And it shows a commitment to Disney quality.

That hasn't been there at other parks from opening DAK incomplete to the truly awful parts of DCA to well, almost all of DSP.

I so don't want HKDL to be grouped with that trio.

Like I said, if it comes down to Disney spending its own money then that is exactly what should be done. The project shouldn't just die and become a WRE for the 21st century ... or one of the many amazing Disney Decade ideas that never moved forward.


<<I hope this doesn't mean the end of Tim Delaney's run at WDI.>>

<<It won't. Tim is a tremendous talent and he has a lot of champions in the Company. He also has some excellent ideas that are gaining traction. One particular idea could revolutionise the way we see most popular attractions (and correct what many people see as Fastpass' most significant faults). tim wasn't the only VP champion for this particular project and he continues to have other imagineers wanting to work with him. An eviable position that many of his colleagues (even those more senior) could learn from.>>

I truly hope you're right.

WDI simply can't keep losing talents like Tim.

And they need big important projects to keep the creative juices flowing.

Blue sky isn't any fun if nothing ever winds up in concrete.

 

Originally Posted By Spirit of 74

<<Mr. Rasulo, in particular, doesn't seem to have learned anything from past mistakes. That's what WE consider to be ridiculous.>>

That's my perception as well.

And it comes from many sources, not simply my personal feelings.

I beleive Jay is like a lot of hard-headed business execs of the 21st century. They believe they are always always right. Even when they don't get the results they desire, there's always an excuse, an extenuating circumstance (or circumstances), always others to blame.

But they are too cocky, too arrogant, too haughty to ever think that their fundamental idea was flawed. That it isn't working because ... well, because it sucks.

I get that feeling strongly about Jay. He isn't a creative person. He isn't someone who enjoys the products he 'manages.'

To Jay, the parks are all the same, all interchangable pieces of 'a brand.'

He absolutely needs to be pushed out of the company if the parks are going to get out of their creative doldrums and soar.

How the MK can go 15 years without a new major attraction is amazing. In a sad kinda way.

 

Originally Posted By tcsnwhite

^and no new parade- day or night- in how many years now?
just had to add that!

 

Originally Posted By TDLFAN

7 years on that parade...

 

Originally Posted By gurgitoy2

^^Although TDL is getting pretty close with Dreams on Parade...when it bows in 2008 it will have run for 6 years!

 

Originally Posted By gurgitoy2

Although nobody beats DLP for stale parades!

 

Originally Posted By katsmom

<<HKDL is a flop, the people (or government has spoken, which for communist China is close enough ). They don't even want to invest in their own park because they don't seem to think its even worth it at this point!!>>
I could say the same thing about small class sizes. We'll push it to get reelected, then fumble the ball. That seems to be the way of the gov't here. Lots of lip service, little back up.

 

Originally Posted By TDLFAN

Yup! That' the Comunist regime to you.