Originally Posted By danyoung >I don't think many will agree with you here. Sure, you get where you're going...eventually. However, it's more efficient to take your own car and not rely on Disney Transport at all.< I guess that's why I see things the way I do - I always rent a car at the airport, and rarely depend on the busses. I still think they do an OK job for what they are. It'd be awful nice to have an extensive monorail network going over the whole property, but I understand how cost prohibitive that would be. But I think the busses do just fine, especially from resort to park, which is what most people use them for.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>However, it's more efficient to take your own car and not rely on Disney Transport at all. DAK is the worst regarding transportation due to its remote location and 100% reliance on buses.<< This is the one issue that I think WOULD have bothered WALT the most. I don't seriously think he would be upset with half the stuff folks think he would when they invoke his memory. But on this one I think there is a factual basis to draw from. One of the major tenants of the Florida project revolved around transportation. In the era of the mid-60s it was all about efficient, automated transportation that would prevent sprawl, chaos, and expense. While decades prior the automobile was an extension of man's ability to migrate, explore, to be free, etc., as well as an economic development tool, it was now looked at as something that needed to be tamed. That personal freedom was now participating in a macro system. Long story, short, Walt's EPCOT film. 5 years after his death, in 1971 when the property opened up. One could still see how much transportation planning played a role in the property. While most of the characteristics Walt marketed in his film where wholly unrealistic (even to Walt), the transportation piece was always considered to be attainable. In 1971, you see the focus on all traffic to the T&TC. Later, you see the STOL port next door. You see an unnecessarily high quantity of water-craft. You see a circular-hub development plan around two bodies of water. Time for the next attraction? Build it next door to the T&TC. Everything possible to reduce automobile traffic. So...... The fact that in the year 2011, most people find automobiles to be far more efficient in getting around the Florida property than any means provided by Disney, well, its quite an indictment and in my eyes something poor ol' Walt would have reacted to in quite an un-Disney way. But hey, as the Disney Company reminds us, Walt always wanted things to change.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "It is the worst of all the MK parks save maybe Hong Kong." You know I keep hearing this from a handful of posters here, but honestly I think TDL is the lamest MK that I've been to. While WDW's MK has some serious issues, I found TDL to be lacking in originality and nothing more than a "best of" from the US parks.
Originally Posted By fkurucz **>>>a clone sort of MK<<< A clone sort of Disneyland you mean, the original (and I would argue in many cases) the best MK.** I recall when I was a kid that CMs would refer to DL as "Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom". Like if you were leaving the Tiki Room after the show the CM would say "Enjoy the rest of your day at Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom"
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>DAK should have never been built.<<<< Everything should and can be built... but at the right times. Beginning with MGM and even PI in 1989, the resort exploded, and got too big for itself. With MK and EPCOT opening 11 years apart, each had sufficient time in the lime light and had sufficient time to be added to. However... EPCOT only got 9 before MGM came along, and it came along half baked, and too quickly. It was a scramble to open it. They should have waited, fully fleshed out the park, and opened it in 1994, after EPCOT got it's refresh, and opened with ToT and a cogent layout. Same for DAK. DAK comes along in 1998, 9 years after MGM has been tacked together. If anything, DAK should have opened in 2005 with Everest, with Asia, and even with BK. Disney rushes things, and that's what gets in the way. And as they space things out, and plan, they could have expanded the transportation systems as well. See, that's the thing... They don't plan or build in a well rounded manner. If Disney needs a new park, BOOM, new park, no sense to the surrounding areas, or even the park itself. It's just opened up as a new venue. If new hotels are needed for both their profits and, I guess, more guest space, we see a decade like the past one in which hotels take the limelight. Honestly, only with EPCOT Center have we seen a full fledged expansion of WDW where we got newer hotels, transportation, AND a full fledged park to open with. Save for the original opening of WDW, but one could argue that that's just a given.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 OK, I know things (one thread that I need to get back to when I can find the time nonwithstanding) are very slow here as we head into another long, hot summer. But my first response to this poll is why? It just makes no sense, really. Why would anyone want any Disney Park to close (not that any would)? I've seen threads like this before and generally they're of the 'what's your favorite Disney Park or WDW park and why?' type of deal. Those can become tiresome and tedious, although sometimes they can be quite interesting too. This almost is just the negative version really. Not directly asking 'what park do you like the least?' but that's the underlying point. If there's a fire in four buildings and you have to let one friend burn ... who will it be? I don't want to see any park, Disney or otherwise, close. I know I'm likely reading way too much into it, but it just seems so negative to me in a needless sort of way. And there's plenty to be negative about at WDW and in the real world, but ... I rank the parks as I enjoy them as follows: 1.) EPCOT; 2.) DAK; 3.) MK; 4 TPFKaTD-MGMS; But I can, and still do, enjoy them all. Maybe we can do a 'most overrated attraction' thread -- that would be TT, a' most overrated resort dining location' -- that would be Le Cellier; a 'most overrated fanboi memory' thread -- that would be the Tomorrow's Child end of SSE; a 'most overrated Mommy blogger experience' -- that would be taking your princess for a Jon-Benet makeover etc ...
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 >>However, it's more efficient to take your own car and not rely on Disney Transport at all. DAK is the worst regarding transportation due to its remote location and 100% reliance on buses.<< <<This is the one issue that I think WOULD have bothered WALT the most. I don't seriously think he would be upset with half the stuff folks think he would when they invoke his memory. But on this one I think there is a factual basis to draw from.>> I dunno. I very much doubt he wanted to run a timeshare operation, hotel chain, cruise line etc. About the only thing I am certain of when it comes to the 'Walt question' is he would NOT be happy with his name slapped on any/everything that has happened in the four-plus decades since his passing. And that he would not have compromised on quality, no matter what. That was a hallmark of a visionary life. I think that is something that can't really be argues based upon his lifetime and belief set. And that's why I can agree with Mike's point here: <<One of the major tenants of the Florida project revolved around transportation. In the era of the mid-60s it was all about efficient, automated transportation that would prevent sprawl, chaos, and expense. While decades prior the automobile was an extension of man's ability to migrate, explore, to be free, etc., as well as an economic development tool, it was now looked at as something that needed to be tamed. That personal freedom was now participating in a macro system. Long story, short, Walt's EPCOT film. 5 years after his death, in 1971 when the property opened up. One could still see how much transportation planning played a role in the property. While most of the characteristics Walt marketed in his film where wholly unrealistic (even to Walt), the transportation piece was always considered to be attainable. In 1971, you see the focus on all traffic to the T&TC. Later, you see the STOL port next door. You see an unnecessarily high quantity of water-craft. You see a circular-hub development plan around two bodies of water. Time for the next attraction? Build it next door to the T&TC. Everything possible to reduce automobile traffic. So...... The fact that in the year 2011, most people find automobiles to be far more efficient in getting around the Florida property than any means provided by Disney, well, its quite an indictment and in my eyes something poor ol' Walt would have reacted to in quite an un-Disney way. But hey, as the Disney Company reminds us, Walt always wanted things to change.>> Buses clogging roads mixed with speeding CMs frazzled to get to work and tourists bumbling about in rental cars, doing things that defy belief while behind the wheel, just isn't visionary ... or efficient ... or ecologically sound ... or MAGICal. So, it's likely not the way Walt would have done things. At some point, TWDC will have to invest big bucks (billions) on real transportation solutions, but that keeps getting passed off like a baton and has since the early 1990s.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 "It is the worst of all the MK parks save maybe Hong Kong." <<You know I keep hearing this from a handful of posters here, but honestly I think TDL is the lamest MK that I've been to. While WDW's MK has some serious issues, I found TDL to be lacking in originality and nothing more than a "best of" from the US parks. >> Ah, there's a salvo from Dr. Hans. Hey, it's opinion, so you're welcome to it. And TDL indeed began life as a 'best of' park, both Disney and OLC officials have said as much. But I don't know when you last visited because it really isn't that anymore. It has parts that were borrowed from MK, DL and, even, TL. But it is so much more. From World Bazaar to the biggest and best Critter Country to unique attractions like Hunny Hunt and Monsters ... to the best and most varied entertainment available in any MK-style park, TDL has them all beat. I'd also suggest the basics of show quality and cast quality and attention to detail, put TDL so far above the other MKs that it simply isn't even comparable. No Disney fan who hasn't been to Japan has any idea what they are missing.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^Oops, not worded very clearly. Point is, if you're a Disney fan who has never been to TDL, you have no idea what you're missing. And TWDC hopes that it stays that way!
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>So, it's likely not the way Walt would have done things. At some point, TWDC will have to invest big bucks (billions) on real transportation solutions, but that keeps getting passed off like a baton and has since the early 1990s.<< Unfortunately the sharp pencil boys would never greenlight something like that. "Transportation" is a "cost center" in their eyes and thus should be as cheap as possible, meaning it should be as inconvenient as possible without becoming an irritation that sends customers elsewhere.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<I dunno. I very much doubt he wanted to run a timeshare operation, hotel chain, cruise line etc. About the only thing I am certain of when it comes to the 'Walt question' is he would NOT be happy with his name slapped on any/everything that has happened in the four-plus decades since his passing. And that he would not have compromised on quality, no matter what.>> I don't know how you can really say that. That might have been the case but it just as easily might not be. Walt was continually becoming interested in new things... things he had never been involved with before. I'm sure at a time when Walt was viewed primarily as an animation artist and film producer, people NEVER expect him to get into the amusement park business. There is no way to predict what areas Walt might have become interested in. His vision for the "Florida Project" and his plans for EPCOT as a city with permanent residents certainly would indicate that he was interested in both real estate development and housing. Since time shares didn't even exist at the time of his death I don't know that you can say if he would have ever become involved or not. And you have to give DVC credit... whether you like timeshares or not, DVC came up with a radically new way of assigning units and occupancy times by creating the "Points" system. For the first time ever a timeshare developer was not selling a specific unit for a specific time. That to me was an extremely creative and positive change from how things had previously been in the timeshare industry. It was positively "Disneyesque".
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>They should have waited, fully fleshed out the park, and opened it in 1994, after EPCOT got it's refresh, and opened with ToT and a cogent layout. Same for DAK. DAK comes along in 1998, 9 years after MGM has been tacked together. If anything, DAK should have opened in 2005 with Everest, with Asia, and even with BK. << A great point. The starter-park build-out method has never sit well with me. Both of those parks would have benefited from a better overall design if they were launched like that. Design and amenity issues Disney deals with today can be traced back to unintended consequences of the day 1 design. And as you point out, it would have offered EPCOT a little more focus when it needed it the most.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Maybe we can do a 'most overrated attraction' thread -- that would be TT, a' most overrated resort dining location' -- that would be Le Cellier; a 'most overrated fanboi memory' thread -- that would be the Tomorrow's Child end of SSE; a 'most overrated Mommy blogger experience' -- that would be taking your princess for a Jon-Benet makeover etc ... << Nailed it.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>So, it's likely not the way Walt would have done things. At some point, TWDC will have to invest big bucks (billions) on real transportation solutions, but that keeps getting passed off like a baton and has since the early 1990s.<< It's because their guest surveys rank character m&gs, firework buffets, and water playgrounds as bigger "needs" than transportation improvements.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>And as you point out, it would have offered EPCOT a little more focus when it needed it the most.<<< Thanks! Being a EPCOT fan, I hesitating adding that caveat into the post... but... It's true. EPCOT was poised to take a great leap in 1994, even if it was part of ditching the EPCOT Center idea. The new outlook of a smaller, more communicative world was perfect for FW Central. It's a shame it's funds were dropped to go fix a park that isn't nearly as creative, and then dropped again to go build a beautiful park, that needs attractions fixed.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip >>So, it's likely not the way Walt would have done things. At some point, TWDC will have to invest big bucks (billions) on real transportation solutions, but that keeps getting passed off like a baton and has since the early 1990s.<< I don't know that Walt ever really tried to design a transportation system that would provide high-speed transportation to a huge number of destinations spread over a wide area like exists at WDW. He put a "ride" based on an EXISTING mode of transportation in DL's Tomorrowland because he thought it represented a means of transit that would become increasingly used in the future. The only transportation it provided was serving as a shuttle to get people from a hotel to a park without having to schlep across a parking lot. As with many of Walt's predictions for the future, this one never happened. The concept has never been used much except in theme parks and along relatively short corridors with a huge number of people traveling a short distance (like Las Vegas). Why did they never become widely used? For the same reason Disney never expanded the WDW monorail beyond Epcot... they are ENORMOUSLY expensive to build.
Originally Posted By Bolna <<Being a EPCOT fan, I hesitating adding that caveat into the post... but... It's true. EPCOT was poised to take a great leap in 1994, even if it was part of ditching the EPCOT Center idea. The new outlook of a smaller, more communicative world was perfect for FW Central. It's a shame it's funds were dropped to go fix a park that isn't nearly as creative, and then dropped again to go build a beautiful park, that needs attractions fixed.>> That's an interesting way to look at it. I have very mixed feelings about Epcot. There are some things that I like about it a lot, but it always feels like it is lacking something. The "clutter" (I was happy to read you mentioning that the whirly-gigs are gone on another thread!) takes a lot away from the Futureworld experience for me. And while the Worldshowcase is very well done, I think I suffer from not belonging to the main audience - I can be all snobbish about having been to a lot of the countries represented multiple times. But I never really fell for the old EPCOT either. A lot of it looks absolutely fantastic - especially Futureworld without the clutter is really beautiful. But besides the old Journey into Imagination I don't really think that the attractions would appeal to me so much today. I know that a lot of them are held in high regard by those who experienced them. But I never saw them in person and the best Martin Smith tribute video cannot replace the real experience. So I have always been torn about whether I would have loved EPCOT. But perhaps that's because I am looking at it with todays eyes - if it had been developed in the way you say it should have been, I would be an Epcot fan today as well?
Originally Posted By danyoung >I don't know that Walt ever really tried to design a transportation system that would provide high-speed transportation to a huge number of destinations spread over a wide area like exists at WDW.< Well, Walt never had the master plan of a bunch of parks in the Florida complex. He had the MK, as that was the weenie that pulled people in. But the plan was to have the monorail connect the MK area with the E.P.C.O.T. complex. I don't think there's any cost effective way that the monorail could be extended to the multiple parks and hotels that we have today. That's why I've been vocal about the busses - low tech, but they do the job better than just about any other transportation system that could reasonably be budgeted for and built. >He put a "ride" based on an EXISTING mode of transportation in DL's Tomorrowland because he thought it represented a means of transit that would become increasingly used in the future. The only transportation it provided was serving as a shuttle to get people from a hotel to a park without having to schlep across a parking lot.< And it didn't even do that at first - it was just a loop over Tomorrowland. It wasn't extended to the hotel till a couple of years later.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>I don't know that Walt ever really tried to design a transportation system that would provide high-speed transportation to a huge number of destinations spread over a wide area like exists at WDW.<< You're wrong. RT, you made an allusion towards the genesis of the Florida property on another thread as well that I thought you were wrong on too. Something to do with the New York Times feature and capitalistic motivations for MK's creation. Either way, it tells me that you haven't had a chance to delve in deep on the history of how the property was originally planned out. Transportation was very integral to each and every plan of Walt's and the plans of those that succeeded him. >>He put a "ride" based on an EXISTING mode of transportation in DL's Tomorrowland because he thought it represented a means of transit that would become increasingly used in the future. The only transportation it provided was serving as a shuttle to get people from a hotel to a park without having to schlep across a parking lot.<< TL67 as well as the expansion of DL's monorail earlier had a partial purpose working as a test-bed for the application of those concepts in larger settings such as the Florida property. >>As with many of Walt's predictions for the future, this one never happened. The concept has never been used much except in theme parks and along relatively short corridors with a huge number of people traveling a short distance (like Las Vegas).<< Correct. And even in Las Vegas they have failed. Mostly because the taxi companies have lobbied hard against the public's interest to link it with the Airport. None of that means your first statement is anywhere near correct. Walt did "try" >>Why did they never become widely used? For the same reason Disney never expanded the WDW monorail beyond Epcot... they are ENORMOUSLY expensive to build.<< I think you are being way too simplistic here. Especially related to the timing of WDW's expansion efforts and even situations like TDR. I agree that these specific ideas for transportation where not scalable for real communities, but the issues with WDW are not as simplistic as regurgitating the common talking point of TOO EXPENSIVE - END OF DISCUSSION.
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>>That's an interesting way to look at it. I have very mixed feelings about Epcot. There are some things that I like about it a lot, but it always feels like it is lacking something. The "clutter" (I was happy to read you mentioning that the whirly-gigs are gone on another thread!) takes a lot away from the Futureworld experience for me. And while the Worldshowcase is very well done, I think I suffer from not belonging to the main audience - I can be all snobbish about having been to a lot of the countries represented multiple times. But I never really fell for the old EPCOT either. A lot of it looks absolutely fantastic - especially Futureworld without the clutter is really beautiful. But besides the old Journey into Imagination I don't really think that the attractions would appeal to me so much today. I know that a lot of them are held in high regard by those who experienced them. But I never saw them in person and the best Martin Smith tribute video cannot replace the real experience. So I have always been torn about whether I would have loved EPCOT. But perhaps that's because I am looking at it with todays eyes - if it had been developed in the way you say it should have been, I would be an Epcot fan today as well?<<<<< You'd be an EPCOT fan, because I have a lot of the same thoughts about the place. It's lacking what it used to have. You'd walk in there, and there would be a very cohesive energy about the place. The pavilions referenced each other, worked together, and were part of a huge idea that the whole park held up. Today, that's fragmented. And yes, the hated clutter is GONE. Can't wait to see a tidier Inno Plaza in a few days. And yes, if that sort of, dare I say it, synergy, returned, and EPCOT became a original, dynamic and focused place, I think you would like it. And yes, I know I would like it. too.
