Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<RT, you made an allusion towards the genesis of the Florida property on another thread as well that I thought you were wrong on too. Something to do with the New York Times feature and capitalistic motivations for MK's creation.> REALLY?? are you sure that was ME? It sounds like a far loftier subject than I would usually tackle. It sounds rather SPIRITual to me!
Originally Posted By Bolna <<You'd be an EPCOT fan, because I have a lot of the same thoughts about the place. It's lacking what it used to have. You'd walk in there, and there would be a very cohesive energy about the place. The pavilions referenced each other, worked together, and were part of a huge idea that the whole park held up. Today, that's fragmented. And yes, the hated clutter is GONE. Can't wait to see a tidier Inno Plaza in a few days. And yes, if that sort of, dare I say it, synergy, returned, and EPCOT became a original, dynamic and focused place, I think you would like it. And yes, I know I would like it. too. >> Indeed, sounds like a park I could love even. ;-)
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>REALLY?? are you sure that was ME? It sounds like a far loftier subject than I would usually tackle. It sounds rather SPIRITual to me!<< No worries. Just felt I needed to chime in after reading both. >>Disney World was originally based on "a shared idea of America as pure capitalist fantasy"? Really? Going back to the beginning of Disneyland the themes have stayed much the same over time. The parks have always been about 'Disneying', about experiencing Magical Gatherings.<< Looking back I probably misinterpreted your words. And looking back outside of the context of that thread flowing from message to message, I think I did. See to me, The intention for Disney World, i.e, the Florida Project, was not based on the themes of Disneyland. The MK was looked at as an unfortunate, but necessary chore for the overall development. Was that mindset wrong and misdirected? YES. Is it good for Disney that they ended up with what they did in 1971? YES. But, I truly believe that Walt did not want those 'themes' as you call them carried out over to the Florida property. It is my opinion, that he very much rather have folks come visit and marvel at the 'capitalist fantasy world' he built rather than a retread of Disneyland and folks going "disneying". The idea of not repeating being very much present in his historical character. So I guess, I understand what you're saying, and I am wrong, but I also want to be careful that it also wasn't the park bench in Griffith Park at play for why he looked to Florida. -- Thanks EE!
Originally Posted By Bolna I know everyone hates the busses. But they can offer one huge advantage over any rail based transportation: direct point to point transportation. As large as WDW is, any rail based system (my preference would be a light railway, however, with regards to cost, I was once told by an engineer that in the swamp building an elevated train might actually be easier than on the ground - whether this then runs on one or two rails really does not matter that much) will always have to involve several stops and possible transfer points. I have lived nearly all of my life in European cities with an extensive system of public transport - I never owned a car because I don't need it. And one of my most important rule when trying to figure out how to get from point A to point B is to avoid transfers. Unless it is during rush hour, a direct bus will very often be better than having to make a transfer from one underground line to another. However, I think the WDW bus fleet is seriously outdated - low floor articulated busses would be so much better. And if they would run on a reliable schedule and stop the nonsense of stops at different resorts, that would be a great step forward.
Originally Posted By danyoung >You're wrong.< Entirely possible. Do you want to elucidate why I'm wrong? To remind you, my point was that Walt didn't have in mind a monorail system (or ANY type of transportation system) that would link 4 parks and dozens of hotels together. His monorail link was from the MK to the city of E.P.C.O.T. only, and then it broke down into people movers over the E.P.C.O.T. project.
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>To remind you, my point was that Walt didn't have in mind a monorail system (or ANY type of transportation system) that would link 4 parks and dozens of hotels together. His monorail link was from the MK to the city of E.P.C.O.T. only, and then it broke down into people movers over the E.P.C.O.T. project. << And you are correct. In defense of RT, I am hoping what you debunk above is what he thought some of us were advocating for. At no point in time would it have been realistic to have a system connecting the current layout of the property. This statement then lends itself to EE's point that perhaps the property itself was poorly master planned. Which it was. The original layout for the property depicted in Walt's film would have easily worked logistically with a monorail/peoplemover transportation solution. The minute they built Lake Buena Vista, they embarked on a new scheme.
Originally Posted By danyoung Mike, take a look at post 59. You quoted me, and then just said "You're wrong." Was this a mistake? If not, I'd like to hear where I was wrong. I'm really not trying to pick a fight here - just confused.
Originally Posted By Malin *** Point is, if you're a Disney fan who has never been to TDL, you have no idea what you're missing. *** Agree TDL needs to be experienced to know what your missing. From upkeep to Cast Members its something you will not get or understand by looking over a few online pictures of the place. And once you do experience your impression of WDW will never be the same again!
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>Indeed, sounds like a park I could love even. ;-)<<< Ohhh, yeah. It was very hard to walk into EPCOT and not be caught up just in how COOL everything was, and how well it worked.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 A clone sort of Disneyland you mean, the original (and I would argue in many cases) the best MK. --- well yeah, it just wasn't part of the 4 park discussion
Originally Posted By ChiMike >>Never mind - I understand now<< No worries... My old age affects me too!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<That's why I've been vocal about the buses - low tech, but they do the job better than just about any other transportation system that could reasonably be budgeted for and built.>> Exactly. And I really believe MOST guests believe they serve their function very well. Usually the people who are most negative about the buses are those who are lucky enough to live in a city with a highly developed transit system using rail and subways. I've got to tell you, I'd have thought it was heaven on earth if Minneapolis had a system of mass transit that worked even 25% as well as the buses at WDW do. Now if I lived in a city with great public transit like Washington DC, New York, Chicago, London or Paris, I would probably feel differently. But the great majority of Americans live in locations where the only "mass transit" available would be a bunch of people walking together to their destination! The first time I stayed on-site the thing that impressed me MOST about the experience was the transit available. Let's face it... the 260 square foot rooms at the All Star Music weren't exactly Magical. And although the Intermission Food court was a convenient place to grab breakfast in the morning, I didn't exactly go home raving about the cuisine available there. But my entire family LOVED the buses. We had a rental car that we used to get from the airport to WDW and back, but it stayed parked in the ASM parking lot the entire time we were there. We thought it was WONDERFUL that we had a way of getting anywhere we wanted within WDW without having to drive unfamiliar roads or wait in long lines at the theme park parking lots when arriving in the morning or leaving at close. People talk about the horrible waits to catch the buses at WDW. Let's compare the time you would spend driving from the ASM to the Magic Kingdom with the time it would take using bus transportation. Driving: Walk from the hotel to the hotel parking lot, which at most resorts involves quite a distance. Get into your car, which is brutally hot for the first 5 minutes from sitting in the Florida sun. Drive to the MK parking lot, which takes the same time as the bus does in covering that distance. If you are close to opening or close, you endure a pretty fair wait trying to enter or exit the lots. TRY to remember where you parked your car... especially back in the day when every single rental car in Florida was a white sedan. It may be easy to remember that you take the Tram to "Goofy 17", but you STILL have to find your car once you are there. Walk from where you parked your car to the nearest tram pickup spot. Depending on how lucky you were, this can be either a short or a long walk. Wait for the next tram, which usually never exceeds 5 minutes. Get off the Tram at the TTC. Wait for either a Ferry or a monorail. The monorail usually comes quite quickly... the Ferry not so much. Spend some additional time in transit across the Seven Seas Lagoon. Yea!! You have arrived at the Magic Kingdom. Driving Time: Walk from your room to the parking lot: 8 minutes. Drive from ASM to the MK parking lot: 12-15 minutes in times of low traffic, 20 or more at peak times. Wait to get into the lot: 1-5 minutes or more depending on time of day. Walk from your car to the tram pickup spot: 1-5 minutes depending on how lucky you were. Wait for the Tram: 1-5 minutes. Ride the Tram to the TTC: 1-3 minutes depending on how far back you parked. Walk to the monorail station or Ferry dock: 2-3 minutes. Wait for the monorail or ferry: 5-15 minutes. Time spent in transit to the MK: 5 minutes with monorail; 10 minutes with Ferry. Total time spent in transit from the ASM to the gates of the MK: Best Possible if you get lucky every step of the way: 36 minutes Worst possible if you get unlucky every step of the way and choose the Ferry: 1 hour 14 minutes or more. "Average" Time: 55 minutes. Riding the Bus: You walk from your room to the transit stop, which is usually closer than the parking lots. You wait for a fairly short period of time and get on a bus that is gloriously cool the minute you step on. Go the the MK without having to worry about how you get there or dealing with the traffic. Get off the bus at the front gate. Yea!! You have arrived at the Magic Kingdom. Bus time: Walk from room to transit stop: 5 minutes. Wait for bus: 1-20 minutes or more Ride from ASM to the MK front gate: 12-15 minutes in times of low traffic, 20 or more at peak times. Best Possible if you get lucky every step of the way: 18 minutes. Worst possible if you get unlucky every step of the way: 45 minutes or more. "Average" Time: 31.5 minutes All times would be considerably off for both driving and taking the bus if you leave the MK right at close with the hordes. I personally don't understand why anyone would do that. The lights of the MK are lovely in the evening and the Main Street shops remain open for a considerable time after close. What's the hurry?
Originally Posted By DyGDisney What is the "hated clutter" in EPCOT? We went for the first time last Oct., so I'm not sure. Actually, I wend the year after EPCOT opened as well. All I remember from that trip is Figment and the Imagination ride. A little bit of the world showcase as well, but that's about it.
Originally Posted By mstaft Studios. Its unfocused and full of untapped potential- but the layout is a mess. Too many shows and not enough rides
Originally Posted By EPCOT Explorer >>>What is the "hated clutter" in EPCOT? We went for the first time last Oct., so I'm not sure. Actually, I wend the year after EPCOT opened as well. All I remember from that trip is Figment and the Imagination ride. A little bit of the world showcase as well, but that's about it.<<<< The purple tarps in CCore/Innoventions Plaza The Pink whirlygigs in the same. The metallic accents on the Innovenions builsinfs. Leave a Legacy The tarp/sign on JII The Nemo Hangings on TLS The overhang on Test Track ...all of it is visual noise, clutter, and detracts from the classy and calm feel FW used to exude.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney >>>The Pink whirlygigs in the same. <<< We didn't do Innoventions, I can't imagine what this looks like! I'm going on an online search.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney Found them. And some info on things we missed when we were at WDW. We only had 4 1/2 days at WDW and I want to go back! So I change my vote. I don't want any park to close because we didn't see everything. Each of the parks has things that are definitely worth keeping. EPCOT was our favorite, and we live close enough to Disneyland that we visit at least once a year and could have skipped MK if we had to. However I could't imagine WDW without MK. It wouldn't feel like Disney.
