Originally Posted By actingforanimators >>The only problem I see is that this process appears to be exactly the same as what happened on Home on the Range in that the musical theater writers are brought in too late.<< How's that, Lee? This story was delivered in first draft in October. That's about three weeks ago. I find that far from being too late to involve the composer and lyricist on project that isn't even visual development for goodness sake. Home on the Range was re-invented as a traditional style musical, and then the musical team brought in during re-vamp from ghost-story to goofy-movie. That’s quite different. Quite. And, yes, I really would choose "When She Loved Me" over Hellfire or Transformation, because it works on a level that appeals to me differently. Do I think Hellfire is less successful? No, I think it's a groundbreaking and breathtaking moment, but it's a big super theatrical moment - a stage moment. I love moments like that, but I just found the moment in TS2 personally more impactful and less showy. My own taste entirely. >>...I think its success in the film has a LOT more to do with John Lasseter than it does with Randy Newman.<< Redhead, I think that Lasseter's ability to open up that moment was driven by the song, and he capitalized off of the power of it to realize images that underscored the character's inner struggle in a way that dialogue could never have managed sufficiently. For me, it proves the value of collaborative inspiration. And just speaking personally, I find his music very specific, and frequently find a lot of contemporary musical theatre stylings very generic and lacking in specificity. By the way, why are any of us assuming this is going to have a traditional three-act musical structure where song drives the story in the usual "Broadway" approach? I deeply appreciate the classical American musical theatre tradition - I have spent a large portion of my own early stage directing career closely involved with it (including work very early on as an apprentice on the lower east side of NYC with a little B-Movie musical parody (*cough*)and later on with a short-lived musical from the dean of the genre, surveying a very dark and violent side of American history) and even to this day I'm a sucker for some very traditional American musicals. That said, what are we really learning and risking if we don't go in a direction that isn't "known" or safe or comfortable? Legacy has value, and most of that value is in realizing that it doesn't get any better, so rather than re-hash it, why not push toward something new? Randy Newman is SO much more interesting to me than Alan Menken. I love Menken, I really, really do. I actually like more of his music than I do of Randy Newman's. Honest. But this pairing just sounds so much more interesting to me and I feel as if I'll be more likely to encounter surprises and delights with this choice, and have less risk of a horrible disappointment and thoughts of "hmmm...sounds a lot like..." if they’d gone with Alan. I'm fully willing to accept that this may not be a popular perspective, and I respect that. And I say so knowing full well that I've been a voice to cheer on works that a vast (often overwhelming) majority have disliked (or at least joined in disliking - sometimes without having even seen the film, simply having dismissed them without more than a preview trailer or word of mouth.) Still, even knowing how it's obnoxiously stubborn of me, I hold that different is much more interesting than the same stuff over and over. Remember, I'm the freak who says that "Home on the Range" and "Atlantis" and "Treasure Planet" have validity in the canon of Disney stories, and that it's worth revisiting them just as often as contemporary musical classics like BatB (a film that I like well enough, but which I still think is THE most overrated of the contemporary classics...feel free to send hate mail on that comment) I’ll take my lumps. The riskier projects at least attempted (and for me, personally, on many levels succeeded at) opening up previously un-tapped approaches and story lines. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. THANK HEAVENS! Ultimately, I trust John Musker and Ron Clements to select a collaborator that will both share, support and open up their vision for telling the story they've chosen to tell with this picture. I'm MUCH more excited at them taking a risk then taking the safe and tried and true path. I think guessing about its outcome before its up on the screen as a finished film is crazy, and, frankly, rude. Is Newman risky? Hmmmm. Maybe. Not what we hoped for? Perhaps not. Should we judge it before we see it? No. No. Again, NO. Call me crazy, but I think giving it a fare shake AFTER it's made is all that any smart film maker could ask for, and the very least they deserve. From my own perspective, I hope they keep the tightest lid in history on this project and stop talking about it until it’s ready for release. If I’ve observed anything in the past six years of Disney filmmaking, I’ve seen how speculation and opinion from outside have done more damage than good. More and more and more I’ve seen how the more information that gets leaked out, the more people both inside the studio and outside the industry in general make up their minds to dislike something before seeing it.
Originally Posted By TheRedhead "And just speaking personally, I find his music very specific, and frequently find a lot of contemporary musical theatre stylings very generic and lacking in specificity." Of course many contemporary musical theatre writers write bland and generic. But in this case we're talking about Alan Menken, who can apparently write in multiple genres. If you said Andrew Lloyd Webber were writing the score, I'd beg Randy Newman myself to take over the project. "Remember, I'm the freak who says that "Home on the Range" and "Atlantis" and "Treasure Planet" have validity in the canon of Disney stories..." I'm with you on Atlantis and Treasure Planet (freaks unite!). And Disney should branch out and do different things. But those things must be good. I don't want "different" just for the sake of "different."
Originally Posted By mawnck >>That said, what are we really learning and risking if we don't go in a direction that isn't "known" or safe or comfortable?<< I cant think of anyone who is more known, safe and comfortable to Lasseter than Randy Newman. Jim Hill says this was Lasseter's decision, made over Clements and Musker's dead bodies, based on the theory that they shouldn't have too many Menken scores in production at once ("Enchanted" having already gotten dibs). AFA, are you saying that that isn't true? In any case, when it comes to style versatility, I'll put any single Menken musical up against Randy Newman's entire career (future included) any day. "I'm a knife. I think I got it made. I'm a knife. I've got a serrated blade." (Jon Stewart's parody of a Pixar/Randy Newman "kitchen utensil" movie)
Originally Posted By Dlmusic What's so bad about Randy Newman? He's written plenty of fine movie songs. James and the Giant Peach is very broadway, it's not pop at all. Toy Story has a soulful-ish number in Strange Things, a sing-songy memorable tune in You've Got a Friend in Me. Woody's Roundup reflected perfectly the old tunes of 50s television. It seems to me that Randy Newman writes in the style he is asked to and that he has a broad range of styles of music. Didn't Randy Newman also write the score for Ragtime, a very strong musical?
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<In any case, when it comes to style versatility, I'll put any single Menken musical up against Randy Newman's entire career (future included) any day.>> I've listened to King David and I thought it was absolutely dreadful. Definately like all of Randy Newman's music over it. I'm not a huge fan of Christmas Carol either.
Originally Posted By ToonKirby > Didn't Randy Newman also write the score for Ragtime, a very strong musical?< Newman wrote the score (and one song for the end credits) for the movie version of "Ragtime". He had nothing to do with the stage musical adaptation.
Originally Posted By basil fan Is Randy Newman singing the songs or just writing them. I don't really like any of the songs in Toy Story, but I wonder how much of that is the singing. I liked You Got a Friend in Me much better when Wheezy sang it. Jonny Quest <a href="http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/glitch/questglitch.html" target="_blank">http://www.whatsitsgalore.com/ glitch/questglitch.html</a>
Originally Posted By leemac <<"King David" is wretched. But I blame Tim Rice.>> Really? I really enjoyed King David and I'm glad to hear it is coming back as a musical rather than the concert that debuted at the NewAm. Soul Has Slain His Thousands and Partridge... are two excellent songs IMO.
Originally Posted By leemac <<How's that, Lee? This story was delivered in first draft in October. That's about three weeks ago.>> Sorry Rhett I didn't make myself clear. I have been told that the song writer/(s) won't be engaged again in the process until the middle of next year. Having spent a lot of time with Alan and Glenn recently (and no doubt more so tonight and tomorrow) I know he is immensely frustrated at having convinced Hahn and the rest of WDFA to engage him (or any musical writer) at an earlier stage like it used to be to only find Lasseter disagrees with that stance. And I'm not surprised that JHM "suddenly" had an article on this LP "exclusive".
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<He had nothing to do with the stage musical adaptation.>> Ok, I always thought it was strange seeing his name since I never thought he had done Broadway. I still think it's disappointing to see a perfectly good songwriter trashed so harshly. It's not like their using the songwriters from Land Before Time 10 or something.
Originally Posted By leemac <<What's so bad about Randy Newman? He's written plenty of fine movie songs. James and the Giant Peach is very broadway, it's not pop at all.>> All personal taste. I couldn't stand James and the Giant Peach solely because of the "awful" songs. My Name is James (or whatever it was called) was plain terrible in my opinion. I don't think it is about "trashing" anyone. Disney is trying to get the feature-length animated musical back in vogue again and I would have thought that a pair of "safe hands" like Menken/Slater would have been better than the "wildcard" of Newman even if Lasseter has the existing relationship with him.
Originally Posted By Dlmusic <<My Name is James (or whatever it was called) was plain terrible in my opinion.>> I really like that song. It just kind of floats in the air. That's something I really appreciate of Randy Newman's music, it seems so simple like a song you've grown up your entire life with. Alan Menken's stuff is fantastic (don't get me started on Hunchback which I think is the most underrated pieces of music ever) but it has a tendency to feel more showy and contrived. I like both songwriters for different reasons and I can think of some stories that I would want Alan Menken to do and some stories Randy Newman would be more suited for. From what I've heard, the Frog Princess is going to have a southern-edge so the more folksy style of Randy Newman could work brilliantly.
Originally Posted By actingforanimators >> Sorry Rhett I didn't make myself clear. I have been told that the song writer/(s) won't be engaged again in the process until the middle of next year....I know he is immensely frustrated at having convinced Hahn and the rest of WDFA to engage him (or any musical writer) at an earlier stage like it used to be to only find Lasseter disagrees with that stance.<< Ahh. Sorry, I didn't get that, Lee. Me bad. What's odd is that this is not as I understand it, insofar as when Randy will start working with Ron and John, but I'll get that clarified shortly. Still, I'm trying not to write much about this project as I believe that too much too soon is potentially deadly. >>I'm not surprised that JHM "suddenly" had an article on this LP "exclusive". << Oh, I don't know how exclusive this is, actually. And Jim is a smart guy. I think he has good intentions and somewhere under the drama lies a very devoted reporter. What worries me is that the entire article was filled with terrible myths and so much misinformation. I’ve spoken to some folks who read that article, accepted it as fact and got in a lot of trouble with folks who quickly corrected them. It also made some people angry, and whoever was the source really needs to be slapped on the wrist, and hard. I don't think misinformation is Jims fault at all. I can’t believe that Jim would ever spread rumor for rumor's sake. He may spin it pretty hard, but I’m the last person who can point a finger at anyone for spinning, for cryin’ out loud! I do believe there is a problem with some sources feeding news to Jim and others. I would correct him (and have on occasion) but he's very very angry with me at the moment (I made him deeply upset with my review of the new Gabler book on Walt) and he has made it explicitly clear that I'm not welcome to communicate with him. So I have to just hope time will heal that and we can move on. Jim and many, many other folks on other sites who report on the happenings at Disney are frequently dependent upon sources that in spite of their enthusiasm and/or job titles are going off of "I heard it said that so and so told so and so that such and such was said to so and so by someone who told them they heard this", If they framed it as such, that would be fine, but 99% of the time they state it as "I heard" or "I know for a fact that"...and this leads to terrible misinformation being taken as fact. This is particularly troublesome when it comes from executives, and it’s shameful. More often than not these stories come through someone either angry for not being in the loop or who are disgruntled about something (ranging from the serious and valid frustration of being downsized to petty job dissatisfaction or even more petty not having been given the same swag as other crew members) or who truly, deeply believe that their single past experience in one meeting gives them insight that allows them to analyze and draw factual conclusions about a division or an artist or production with whom they have had less than five hour’s cumulative contact. Disney has tried very hard to cap this well of misinformation, not because they worry about what is written here or elsewhere so much as how it manifests itself in the workplace. But we have to remember that Disney was under management that was anything but transparent and supportive for a long, long, long time. Certain behaviors of some senior leadership branded everyone in those units as being just as careless and mean. It leads to distrust, fear, and lots of hypocrisy. (One need only look at “Dream On Silly Dreamer†to understand how one event can make so many people so angry, and distrustful of anyone who gets within five feet of the messenger or the decision maker – so angry that that they disregard the contributions of their colleagues and selectively edit their statements to oddly disassociate themselves with films that at one point they themselves loved, championed and were proud of – that is until the box office returns came in and the bonus checks dried up, and the axe fell, and then suddenly they only love the moves that made money.) Sometimes people need other people to blame, and they make blanket statements and conclusions and assumptions that, if they could just hear themselves, they’d be ashamed of having said. As management styles change there will still be some residual grumbling, but hopefully it will die down. Regardless, we all crave the inside scoop whether we’re fans of Disney or Disney cast members. We crave as much news on the magic being made behind the castle walls as we can possibly squeeze out of anyone and everyone. But sometimes we just have to settle for "I don't know" and not make drama where none exists – it’s the antithesis of creative magic and it doesn’t serve anyone.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>What worries me is that the entire article was filled with terrible myths and so much misinformation.<< Such as?
Originally Posted By tcsnwhite "I made him deeply upset with my review of the new Gabler book on Walt" did you think the book was truthful, or not? just curious, and wondering if I should actually but it or not.
Originally Posted By jdub <<What's so bad about Randy Newman? He's written plenty of fine movie songs. >> Well, mayyybeee, then... >>Is Randy Newman singing the songs or just writing them. I don't really like any of the songs in Toy Story, but I wonder how much of that is the singing.<< Yeah. What he said. Maybe the songs would be less grating on me without hearing R-New doing the vocals.
Originally Posted By actingforanimators MAWNK - You've been posting to Jim's site on this article, and even commented on what others pointed to as misinformation. But please rest assured that this is not true - "he just forced Newman on this acclaimed film-making team" - the choice of Newman was not forced upon anyone. Lasseter has given Ron and John support and encouragement and left all decisions to them. Newman was their choice over Menken. As for the comment "I'm still very concerned about those persistant rumors that suggest that -- should traditional animation actually get revived at WDFA -- that these films will then be out-sourced. Meaning that while all of the story work may be done back on the Burbank lot, the actual animation for these films will then be farmed out" - First of all, Disney has jobbed out various portion of its feature animation on features as far back as "The Little Mermaid" and before. (Take note: Glen Keane was NOT a Disney employee when he animated Ratigan. He was hired by Ron and John to take on the job as an independent contractor, and the vast majority of Ratigan was animated by Glen at home...)so perpetuating a rumor (and that's all it is...a rumor from some unemployed folks who are eager to get back in to Disney) that all animation will be farmed out is...well it's framed in what I think is an inflamatory and irresponsible way. The implication of all animation being jobbed out is quite absurd, and it's exactly the opposite of what John Lasseter intended when he took over the helm at WDFA to revive it to glory, including 2D work. Regardless, Jim's article didn't appear here, so I think it's unfair of me to go on breaking it down line by line on these boards. TCSNWHITE - The Gabler book is truthful, but I found it to be written with a point of view that is myopic and off-point. There's a review of it here on LaughingPlace that you can read <a href="http://www.laughingplace.com/News-ID510840.asp" target="_blank">http://www.laughingplace.com/N ews-ID510840.asp</a> Jim has a differing opinion, and his own well argued and lauditory review is on his site at <a href="http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/jim_hill/archive/2006/11/01/6521.aspx" target="_blank">http://jimhillmedia.com/blogs/ jim_hill/archive/2006/11/01/6521.aspx</a>
Originally Posted By mawnck >> the choice of Newman was not forced upon anyone. Lasseter has given Ron and John support and encouragement and left all decisions to them. Newman was their choice over Menken.<< Well, there we go. Why didn't you say so? More to the point, why don't you say so on Jim's site? If Jim's sending out misinformation on this scale, then we could use better informed people like yourself to set him (and us) straight.
Originally Posted By mawnck Oh, and my apologies to Ron, John, John L., and anybody else I have disparaged during the course of this.
