Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF >>In this case, the description fits except with the word hatred. So I'll take the rest. I am completely devoted to my belief here, and I am intolerant of encouraging gay marriage.<< OK. If the shoe fits: BIGOT.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>This was a leap from what I said. This is not a reason I supported Prop 8.<< You supported it based on your prejudice, by your own admission. Which is even a little worse than doing something out of irrational fear. Oh, you called it faith. But then by proudly owning the label of bigot as defined in post 19 (sans hate, of course). "Treating a group... with intolerance." That's what you are okay with? Really? Then don't complain when people treat members of your group that way. Goose, gander, etc.
Originally Posted By Labuda Ok, Josh - after reading your post #10, I will do my best not to be snarky. BUT, why is something that the President of your church read the word of God? And, you're absolutely right that I disagree, but thank you for your answer.
Originally Posted By ecdc Yes, love the sinner, hate the sin. Sure, but the problem here is they're one in the same. Being gay is who someone is, Josh. If someone said they loved you but hated Mormonism, you'd probably have a hard time swallowing that since your Mormonism is so melded into who you are. It was very common in the 1950s for segregationists to insist that they didn't "hate" black people. Why, they even had black friends. They just didn't think blacks and whites should mix is all. Is that so hard for people to understand? The point of course is that we don't rely on bigots to tell us whether or not they're bigots, since of course no one thinks they are. We analyze their actions, see what they're advocating, and make a judgment. By analyzing Mormon actions, we can very reasonably conclude that Mormons who supported Prop 8 are bigots. You can't have it both ways: Get to participate in bigoted activities and then shed the label. Own your actions and the consequences that flow from them.
Originally Posted By gadzuux And we need to point out the extra irony from a minority group of people that were persecuted for their peculiarities regarding their beliefs and practices regarding marriage. So much so that their leader - their 'messiah' was beaten to death. NOW they presume to persecute others over definitions of what is or isn't marriage. They know their own history better than anyone else - why don't they see their own hypocrisy?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I did take offense to being labeled a bigot, because it implied hatred.> Not necessarily. I'm old enough to remember when civil rights for blacks and segregation were still open questions in this country. When I was a kid, I had plenty of southern relatives who were NOT malicious people. Some were, sad to say. But most were not. Yet they still supported the status quo in which blacks were treated unequally. They did so not through hatred per se, but because they were brought up to believe that that was they way things ought to be. They were told so over and over, including (VERY sad to say) by their church - in their case the Baptist church. So they were not malicious people, but they were absolutely bigoted people who held these bigoted beliefs as a form of received "wisdom" as "just the way things are." And supported policies to continue the bigotry and the unequal treatment of millions of Americans. Not haters. But bigoted nonetheless. Remind you of anyone, Josh?
Originally Posted By ecdc >>So they were not malicious people, but they were absolutely bigoted people who held these bigoted beliefs as a form of received "wisdom" as "just the way things are." And supported policies to continue the bigotry and the unequal treatment of millions of Americans.<< I'd bet good money a good portion of them don't remember it that way, either. Many people who despised Martin Luther King, Jr. as basically the Al Sharpton of the 60s now think he's a Saint.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "You ask for people to respect your faith and your views and your beliefs, yet you and your ilk cannot be bothered to extend the same courtesy to others. So why do you deserve better than what you give out? I don't care what you believe as long as it doesn't impact MY life. You don't care what I believe, but you and your people insist that I (and everyone else) conduct myself in accordance with your beliefs." This is the core of it. Respond to this, josh.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Can you be more specific?<< The hypocrisy of demanding respect but not giving it. Telling someone their relationship isn't worthy of marriage is disrespectful anyway you slice it. Your church gets upset anytime the temple ceremony is shown, and demands respect for its sacred beliefs. My marriage is the most sacred thing I have, so why trample that which is sacred to others?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Can you be more specific?" Why should your religion trump all others? Gadzuux is gay. Let's assume he believes in God, goes to church every Sunday, tithes, donates to charity, witnesses to others. he wants to marry his partner. His religion approves. Who are the Mormons to tell him he can't?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I'd bet good money a good portion of them don't remember it that way, either. Many people who despised Martin Luther King, Jr. as basically the Al Sharpton of the 60s now think he's a Saint.> Boy howdy! Nailed it. They showed MLK on TV once and one of my aunts said out loud "I always liked him. He was always a good one." I guess she said it for the benefit of her grandkids... I certainly remember that she did NOT always like him, and the very phrase "he was always a good one" indicates she still has, shall we say, issues.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <Why should your religion trump all others? Gadzuux is gay. Let's assume he believes in God, goes to church every Sunday, tithes, donates to charity, witnesses to others. he wants to marry his partner. His religion approves. Who are the Mormons to tell him he can't?> Great question.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <Why should your religion trump all others? Gadzuux is gay. Let's assume he believes in God, goes to church every Sunday, tithes, donates to charity, witnesses to others. he wants to marry his partner. His religion approves. Who are the Mormons to tell him he can't?> The issue is more complicated than that. It's a social issue that will be determined by courts, votes, etc.
Originally Posted By gadzuux You're only kidding yourself. It was already determined by the courts. Your church - a thousand miles away - decided it didn't like what the courts determined and sought to overturn the decision. Let's emphasize that - your church exerted powerful influence and huge sums of cash to overturn existing law. As an indirect result, it effectively became a "political action" group. It was effective too because it promulgated lies and half-truths - school "field trips" to gay weddings, fear-mongering about gay sex instructions in class, and playing into people's base fears. This is indefensible, but keep trying anyway.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>The issue is more complicated than that. It's a social issue that will be determined by courts, votes, etc.<< Which means your church leaders must've been uninspired to practice a form of marriage that was determined to be unconstitutional by both votes, Congress, and courts. Of course, there's typically a reason we don't like votes to overrule courts. If we did so, segregation would still be happening in the south right now.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <The issue is more complicated than that. It's a social issue that will be determined by courts, votes, etc.> Of course, the same thing was said by segregation supporters once. "It's complicated. It's a social issue." Race relations - and sexuality - ARE complicated things, but that's a smoke screen. Because treating people equally under the law is not complicated. The practical effect of what you support is that millions of Americans are not treated equally under the law. That is the very uncomplicated bottom line, which you turn your head away from.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I just wanted to reaffirm that my church's support of Prop 8 wasn't about hate. I'm not wrong about that.*** And yet you freely admit that your support is due to your Prophet's wishes, which you can not know but can only guess at. So for all you know, it IS about hate. It's as good a guess as any, after all.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***Astounding, isn't it - the perpetrators become the victims*** Sadly, it isn't all that astounding these days. It's hardly *just* the Mormons, I've heard similar woes from other Christian groups, and beyond that from a large number of right wing activists and, of course, from the noise machine. So it's no secret where they're learning it from, anyway (or else, if Josh is right, then God listens to the noise machine and instructs their prophet accordingly).
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "The issue is more complicated than that. It's a social issue that will be determined by courts, votes, etc." Incredibly incorrect. It's NOT more complicated than that. You're ducking the question. Moreover, by virtue of the involvement of the Mormon Church, it goes beyond simply a legal and voting process, so your own church contradicts your answer. The church is imposing its religious doctrine by applying so much money and effort into the issue. You've said in this thread you God informs you on this issue. Therein lies the contradiction. Your religion, because thinks itself right among all others, imposed its view on this issue here in California via the voting process. Therefore, I'll ask the question again and we all expect an answer. Why should a Mormon view trump all others?
