Originally Posted By Mr X ***The issue is more complicated than that*** Justice, fairness, and equality are not complicated at all. You just wish they were, because you are, at the very heart of it, solidly against those things.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Because Mormons have a monopoly on the truth. They won't state it as such but it's exactly what they think. Their beliefs are correct for everyone so they have the right to decide for everyone. I lived 27 years under that belief system and even devoted two years of my life to convincing others to adopt these beliefs. They are wrong and their followers are delusional and naive.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Because Mormons have a monopoly on the truth. They won't state it as such but it's exactly what they think.<< Let me channel Josh: Sorry, that's not correct. Translation: Mormons believe they have all the truth that God has revealed on this world and that other churches have a portion of the truth. They are welcome to bring their truth with them when they join Mormonism. Why Because even though there are many churches that believe their way is right, Mormonism really IS the right way. Convenient you say? Maybe so, but I believe it, and nothing you say can change my mind.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF The closing arguments for the Prop. 8 trial happen to be today. The judge asked both sides to answer a series of 39 questions. If anyone's interested in what both sides have to say, here's the plaintiff side: <a href="http://www.equalrightsfoundation.org/legal-filings/plaintiffs-response-to-courts-questions-for-closing-arguments/" target="_blank">http://www.equalrightsfoundati...guments/</a> And the defendant side: <a href="http://www.scribd.com/doc/33080564/Doc-687" target="_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/3308.../Doc-687</a> I haven't read through them myself yet; I only just saw they were available a short while ago.
Originally Posted By Labuda Do we know how long the judge is expected to deliberate after the closing arguments finish?
Originally Posted By Mr X In all fairness, it should be clearly noted that the Mormons do NOT have a monopoly on having a monopoly on the truth. While they might be some of the more extreme types, there are PLENTY of others (some working side by side WITH the Mormons on their prejudicial agendas while happily allowing the Mormons to bear the brunt of the backlash). As an ex-Catholic, I can attest to the fact that there are CERTAINLY plenty of folks there who are convinced that the Catholic church knows what's what, and nobody else does. And certainly the Pope is just as revered and just as much a "prophet" (aka "infallible" on matters of faith) as his Mormon counterpart. Of course the Mormons believe the Catholics are wrong, and vice-versa. And of course the Iranian Ayatollah's would beg to differ with both of them on who's boss, as would THEIR followers. Not to mention a long time ago lots of zealots believed that THEIR dear leader, Buddha, er I mean Muhammad, er I mean Jesus, er, I mean Vishnu...er, well you get the point, was infallible. Gods, even. And to the followers of the likes of David Koresh and Jim Jones, believing in the infallibility of THOSE guys was ALSO "true", and certainly unquestionable. Drink up. Burn, baby, Burn. NOONE is freakin infallible. There's a sucker born every minute (and very few of them are Mormons, relatively speaking).
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Do we know how long the judge is expected to deliberate after the closing arguments finish?" As long as it takes.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>In all fairness, it should be clearly noted that the Mormons do NOT have a monopoly on having a monopoly on the truth.<< Which just makes it all the more absurd that they actually believe they have the truth. The mental gymnastics to convince yourself that even though all these other people think they have the truth, you REALLY do, as astounding. It's even more astounding that they'd impose that silliness on the rest of us by pouring cash into an issue that had no business being on the ballot in the first place. Can you imagine the reaction if we got the issue of Mormons being allowed to marry on the ballot? The victim mentality would swing into high gear.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The mental gymnastics to convince yourself that even though all these other people think they have the truth, you REALLY do, as astounding*** And yet it happens, all the time, to billions of people around the world engaged in these various religious pursuits. Certainly SOME religions do instruct their congregates that other ways are "okay", but most do not. And as far as the one I'M familiar with (Catholic), everyone else goes to hell. So in that sense, the Mormons are a slight bit nicer since apparently you get a bonus round in the afterlife, or something.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***The victim mentality would swing into high gear*** In my experience, the victim mentality (for Mormons sure, but also for so many other Christian churches in America) has been in high gear ever since they went on the attack 100% against gays. Just a decade or two ago, they had no need to go on the attack. They claimed "gay is bad", and society at large agreed with them (certainly the courts did, since anti-homosexuality laws were on the books til SCOTUS struck them down quite recently). So now THEY have to go on the offensive. But, oops...backlash. So now it's the poor beleaguered Christians (Mormons, Muslims, Shintoists, you name it they claim it) who are "suddenly", as usual, "being persecuted". Sorry, Charlie. That dog don't hunt.
Originally Posted By Labuda ""Do we know how long the judge is expected to deliberate after the closing arguments finish?" As long as it takes." Gee, thanks. But, honestly, since your job is what it is, SPP, can you give an educated guess as to how long we may have to wait?
Originally Posted By mele Blah, blah, blah Hatred/fear...faith/stupidity At this point it's tomato/tomahto. The Golden Rule is completely lost on people who supported Prop 8. They'll get what they deserve in the end and that's good enough for me.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Gee, thanks. But, honestly, since your job is what it is, SPP, can you give an educated guess as to how long we may have to wait?" Probably 2-4 weeks.
Originally Posted By gadzuux And no matter what the verdict is, the case will move on to the supreme court. Which means that while the validation might be nice for whichever side prevails in this case, ultimately it doesn't much matter.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt ***The issue is more complicated than that*** "Justice, fairness, and equality are not complicated at all." You guys, and I don't mean to mock Josh's beliefs, but the answer to this whole debate is that Mormons, like many religious groups, believe that their actions are for the greater good in executing God's will according to the teachings of the Bible and other religious works. Josh is incapable of being against Prop 8 due to his strong faith in God and teachings in the Book of Mormon. In his mind God, his church, and his beliefs are all tied together, perhaps one and the same. This debate reminded me of why I used to accuse him of being intellectually lazy when it came to questioning his religion's teachings and what it stands for. His stance may seem contradictory to us, but to him and millions of other LDS Church members it all makes perfect sense.
Originally Posted By gadzuux The difference is that josh is perfectly aware of the arguments against his position. He understands them, he just chooses to discard logic and reason in favor of church doctrine, which doesn't have to make sense. So it's a kind of deliberate delusion - choosing blind faith in others over his own god given common sense.
