Originally Posted By ecdc >>ecdc is wrong when he says that someday "Mormons will forget why" they didn't support gay marriage.<< Maybe. The problem for you is I have history on my side and you have wishful thinking about the future on yours. Polygamy was hands-down more important to the church than gay marriage. LDS leaders went to prison over it, they lost statehood for 30 years over it, Congress passed multiple laws against it. There has never, ever been a doctrine more important to the LDS church than polygamy (the modern church's over-the-top efforts to portray it otherwise aside). Today, however, many LDS members can't even tell you why it was practiced. You get whacky stories about widows, the Mormon Battalion, etc., that completely contradict the history. Just a few weeks ago I spoke with a co-worker who was shocked to find out that Joseph Smith even practiced polygamy. The point is, do not assume that the intensity of the church's feelings on a topic today will carry over into the future. This is also true with the black issue, which also had very strong theological teachings behind it, but today has been conveniently relegated to simply a "policy." Precedent is on my side, Josh, not yours.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Sure, the blacks and the priesthood issue was much more cloudy than he likes to think. Can you show me a comparable Church document to the Proclmation on the Family about the blacks issue?<< Yes, there are some. But there are many more on polygamy, including canonized revelation. Again, you're letting your lack of knowledge of history influence your thinking; you're assuming that because something is seen as a certain way today, it was always seen that way. It's just not so.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It's educated, though-out faith in God and His Prophets*** Okay, if your conclusion is truly an "educated" one, even religiously speaking, then how is it that you wind up a member of a tiny fringe group. Are all the BILLIONS of members of much larger and more firmly established religions somehow less educated than you? Or even your leaders? Sure, a few million of you guys agree that your religious way is the RIGHT religious way, but hundreds of billions more religious folks completely disagree with you (many in complete agreement in vast numbers). So what makes you right and they wrong? And if you're so right, why is your group so insignificant...practically unknown really (though the anti-gay stuff IS helping to make ya'll more famous...is that the intention?).
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Not true. He just doesn't like my answers.<< You haven't answered and have instead danced around the issue. The answer to SPP's question is that the Mormon Church trumps all others because it really, honest-to-goodness IS the one true church. God himself speaks directly to the head of the Mormon church. Sure, no one can prove this. Sure, other churches great and small claim this same thing. But take Josh's word for, the LDS Church REALLY is the one! That is why they get to take away the rights of others. Because it's the will of Jesus himself. If Jesus didn't want it to be this way, the church wouldn't be doing it.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***God himself speaks directly to the head of the Mormon church*** Must be on line two. Pretty sure the Vatican still keeps the red phone for themselves.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "The Church said they didn't realize something had to be submitted every day, the fixed the mistake, admitted it, and paid the penalty." that's called a justification, Josh. "Who's defending illegality?" Defending, justifying. Tomato, to-mahto.
Originally Posted By Labuda Wow, I'm not sure how much of this can be believed on this website, but the quote from Brigham Young is especially interesting to me. <a href="http://www.christiandefense.org/mor_black.htm" target="_blank">http://www.christiandefense.or...lack.htm</a> “But let them apostatize, and they will become gray-haired, wrinkled, and black, just like the Devil" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 332 I'm not sure how much I can take honestly because, hey, I'm not sure how much I trust "ChristianDefense"'s website.
Originally Posted By Labuda Wow, this is especially nice, considering it was less than 50 years ago: In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated: I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79; emphasis added).
Originally Posted By ecdc There's much worse than that, but that shouldn't be surprising coming from a nineteenth-century American. I don't bring up these things to shock or embarrass, but really to point out how Josh's logic doesn't hold up under the scrutiny of his own church's history. Mormons are causing intense harm to the lives of others in large part because they are ignorant of their own past. And it's a willful, even proud ignorance. "I don't NEED to know any of that stuff. All I need is to know the will of God via his prophet." It's very troubling that such cruelty and harm like Prop 8 could be perpetuated because people are so unwilling to inform themselves, while ironically convincing themselves that they actually have pure knowledge. DAR asked what the point is - we won't change Josh's mind. But this isn't a completely subjective conversation. There's right and and wrong and Josh's side is wrong on many levels, and that's worth standing up for what's right and calling bigotry what it is every single time, no matter if that bigotry is cloaked in religion or supposed kindness. Injustice triumphs when good people do nothing. Our American sense of fairness tells us that everyone's entitled to their opinion and there's two sides to every story. But on this topic, there's right and wrong. Josh is wrong.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "That's a lot of questions, and not all of them are good questions." They're great questions. And that's a very weak try at an insult. You haven't answered one yet, so don't try and kid a kidder here, you're way out of your league.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Man, I really shouldn't be getting into this. I'm posting here for the first time in several months and I will probably be pissing people off. The great majority of people here CLEARLY do not understand devout religious belief. Any religious belief goes against ANYTHING that can be proven and frequently contradicts everything science has shown us over the past 100 years. But religion is NOT ABOUT proof; it is NOT ABOUT scientific logic. It is about BELIEF. And if religion involves believing in something that is basically against all logic in the first place, how can you say that one illogical belief is any more absurd than any other illogical belief? You guys rip on Mormons because they are something of a fringe religion and make an easy target. But are they any more absurd than the Christian right supported by Palin and her fellow travelers? Are they any more absurd than the Catholic religion, which requires abnormal sex practices by its clergy (abstinence) and then wonders why the clergy engage in OTHER abnormal sex practices? Are they any more absurd than the violent philosophies promoted by the more extreme proponents of the Muslim religion? You guys just don’t get it. Religion is not about logic. It is about belief. And who is to say that the beliefs of the Mormon religion are any more bizarre than the beliefs of any other religion? Yea, I know. It is not politically correct to rip on Baptists or Catholics or Muslims. But those freaks in Utah? What the hell… let them have it! So get used to it Josh. It goes with the territory. Seventy years ago it was European Jews. Now it is American Mormons. That is what happens to those who believe in minority religions. Get used to it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip By the way... this in NO WAY implies that I support the Mormon position on this issue, because I absolutely do not! But their opposition to gay marriage is no more damaging than the opposition of the religious right. In fact in many ways it is considerably more benign. Yes, the Mormons can throw some money at an issue and impact the vote on ONE ISSUE in ONE STATE. Can they deliver the votes on a NATIONAL basis that Winky and the religious right can deliver without really trying? No way in hell. So if you waste your time battling Mormons you are pursuing a Quixote-like quest to battle windmills. Wake up. Recognize and battle the enemy that can actually hurt you on a national basis.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***how can you say that one illogical belief is any more absurd than any other illogical belief?*** I agree completely. They're all cults as far as I'm concerned.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>But religion is NOT ABOUT proof; it is NOT ABOUT scientific logic. It is about BELIEF. And if religion involves believing in something that is basically against all logic in the first place, how can you say that one illogical belief is any more absurd than any other illogical belief?<< Right, which begs the question, why is religious belief being imposed on those of us who reject it when it has nothing to do with logic or reality? As I've stated numerous times, I have nothing against personal religious faith that hopes for something better. But the whole point is that religious people don't act like their faith is sans logic or proof. They act as if it's the most obvious thing in the world, that their faith and science are one in the same, that their faith and truth are one in the same. That's the problem. They don't have enough foresight to see that one man's faith is another's superstition. They take pride in rejecting reason and logic and imposing faith on the rest of us. (Not all, obviously, but plenty.) And I have to disagree that this is just being mean and picking on the Mormons. There have been a few unfair potshots here and there, sure. But by and large, these conversations have been about the LDS church's involvement in Prop 8. And they've focused on that religion because they represent less than 2% of the California population and contributed well over 50% of the funds to Prop 8.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "So if you waste your time battling Mormons you are pursuing a Quixote-like quest to battle windmills. Wake up. Recognize and battle the enemy that can actually hurt you on a national basis." Oh, I recognize that very much, trust me. They haven't been the subject of this particular topic is all. In most states and on the national level they have been the greatest impediment to equal rights, no question.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt RoadTrip you missed the point. Josh is being grilled here because this debate is about the illegal and deceptive measures the LDS Church took to ensure that Prop 8 passed. Josh continues to defend his church's actions, even justifying their illegal actions. For that he absolutely deserves to be chastised. "Yes, the Mormons can throw some money at an issue and impact the vote on ONE ISSUE in ONE STATE." Wait a just minute. The LDS Church and its members effectively put the kabosh on any kind of same sex marriage debate in Utah way back in 1995 with the very first defense of marriage law, and their lobbying together with Catholics against gay marriage in Hawaii is well known. The LDS Church may not be the greatest threat to the rights of gay citizens in this country, but you would have to be very naive to believe that the only place they've been successful in their efforts is in California.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal "But religion is NOT ABOUT proof; it is NOT ABOUT scientific logic. It is about BELIEF. And if religion involves believing in something that is basically against all logic in the first place, how can you say that one illogical belief is any more absurd than any other illogical belief?" I think this is one of my biggest problems with Josh's explanation of his religion. He doesn't say that he BELIEVES. He says he KNOWS. Without a doubt - KNOWS. And he doesn't And I don't. And no one else on earth does. Which makes it just a belief. But when it's presented as fact it gets frustrating. As you said, it's not a matter of fact but of faith.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Right, which begs the question, why is religious belief being imposed on those of us who reject it when it has nothing to do with logic or reality?>> Which is exactly what the Prop 8 proponents had to do in court: present logical arguments and reality-based testimony as to why gay marriage is harmful to society. How can they do that, if their actions to back Prop 8 are based on FAITH? You cannot deliberately and willfully discriminate against a small minority group and permanently change the constitution to legalize said discrimination based on belief only. Scientific proof, rational thought, and real world experiences are the only measuring stick acceptable in a court of law. No one can stand before a judge and convince the bench that their behavior is justified simply because God is on their side and they're just following orders. Doesn't work for terrorists, so it shouldn't work for religious zealots attempting to codify their beliefs. Here's a question for Josh and his supporters: If the LDS Church is simply working from instructions given to them by God through their prophets, and that gay marriage is such a horrible terrible plague upon society that Prop 8 must be allowed to stand in order to protect society from the negative effects of gay marriage... then why did the Prop 8 proponents steadfastly REFUSE to allow the televised broadcast of the trial? If the Mormons and other Prop 8 supporters and their legal team are so absolutely positively guaranteed confident that they're speaking for God in this matter and that gay marriage is so detrimental to society and they can PROVE it... then why not let the rest of the nation and the world SEE this during the trial when testimony in favor of Prop 8 is presented? If the LDS Church were working purely from FAITH, they would be PROUD to have the national media attention on their pulpit in the courtroom. There would be ZERO fear to stand tall and make their case heard across the national airways. But no... they fought the judge tooth and nail to keep those cameras out of the courtroom, because they KNEW that their case was based on FALSEHOODS and that they severely lacked the necessary LOGIC and REASON and REAL WORLD TESTIMONY needed to win the trial. So don't try to tell me that this is all about FAITH and BELIEF. Anyone who has enough of those will gladly witness to the world why their God and their religion is correct.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox When all is said and done, I still believe this is rooted in fear of the fundamentalist Mormons who still practice polygamy and wish to legalize it. The LDS Church leadership foolishly believes that if gay marriage becomes legal, then polygamy will be next. And when that can of worms opens up, the back-peddling and fervent rewriting of Mormon history will permanently shame the SLC leaders who've been desperately trying to sweep that mess under the Temple rug for over a century.
