Originally Posted By Dabob2 "we think we are not doing either of those things" You can "think" that up is down, but nope--up is still up. If I ask you not to baptize me and you do anyway, it's against my consent and completely disrespectful to boot. "Think" what you will, but you can't change that fact.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Oh no I get it." Like hell you do. "The part that you guys are not getting is that even if someone gets baptised in your name you are not actually baptised unless you consent to accept it. Nothing will happen to you dead or alive unless you consent to it. Your religion will not change unless you want it to." The person not getting it here is you, in spades. And the Mormon cult. This isn't about "changing my religion". I don't have a religion. I believe in God, and that's as far as it goes. I don't need any gang to tell me how to go about doing it. But no one has said anything about "changing a religion" except you. We just don't want you doing anything at all, period. No baptism ceremony, name or no name. Just leave us the hell alone. How hard is that to grasp?
Originally Posted By ecdc As has been pointed out, the issue is one of respect. Mormons come at this from a place of belief, thinking that the baptism for the dead has some kind of efficacy. Obviously people of other faiths reject that; they aren't worried that they're going to be Mormon in the next life because they don't believe Mormon baptism means anything. They're just irritated that someone didn't have enough respect for their choices while they were alive to let things be. It is saying, "I think your choices while you were alive were wrong and not good enough." Hey, why might someone find that disrespectful?
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<and we think we are not doing either of those things. >> Sick and tired of being told what Mormons think about their own lives let alone what they think about others. If you want people to leave YOU alone, you leave THEM alone. I learned that in kindergarten. Would be nice if y'all caught up. The one thing most (if not all) religions have in common is the Golden Rule. Jesus seemed pretty sweet on that idea, too. If you truly honored him, you'd focus on that...and if that doesn't keep you entirely busy on yourself then you're not doing it right.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Jesus said lots of things, mele. And sacrificing my time to be baptized for someone (which is meaningless if they don't choose to accept it in the afterlife) is one of the most Christ-like things I can possibly think of doing.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Which is exactly why you're a cult member. I couldn't have summed it up better.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Did you know that most people would find it offensive to call them a cult member? Good think i'm not most people. They hypocrisy from the Mormon haters is palpable in this thread.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka How am I being hypocritical? I've never said I was a religous person; I've got no oath to a guy in the sky to not be offensive to those who go out of their way to be offensive to others. But, at least I would never defend, nor promote, anyone voting to give you less rights than I expect for myself. Too bad you cannot say the same. I know how much you love to stroke yourself over your Mormon martyrdom. I'm guilty of giving you opportunity but it's worth it just to say that many people see you for exactly who you are, no matter which words/brainwashing you hide behind.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Saying "You are a cult, you are hateful" to someone offering a gift is pretty hateful.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox This is actually fairly simple. I'll spell it out for you. Again. If you believe that *your* god and *your* savior is the only one, that *your* religion is the one true religion while everyone else's is false... you have put yourself above everyone else and judged them to be inferior. This is what I object to, regarding ANY religious organization and/or its members. I object to the very idea of one particular god or savior or religion to be the ONLY "true" god or savior or religion of the universe. For that very reason, the act of post-mordem baptism is offensive. It comes from judgment, not love. It is bigoted to believe that you're going to an afterlife of eternal redemption, while everyone else outside of your belief system is getting eternal damnation. And being bigoted is being hateful. It is NOT being tolerant. Which was the main lesson of Christ and other prominent religious figures throughout history, around the globe.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 No, Josh. Exactly backwards. You want respect for your religion, but not willing to grant it fully for those who don't share it. When you don't leave alone those who wish to be, that is disrespectful. If you offer me a cookie and I say "no thanks, I like my kind of cookie better, that should be the end of it. If you continue with "no really, my cookie is better," and I say "NO, thanks," then you've become annoying, even if IOU don't mean to be, and even if you sincerely believe you're offering me one excellent damn cookie. If you then continue even further to offer me this cookie, you have become downright disrespectful, no matter how much you like your cookie. I don't understand why this is hard to grasp.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I don't understand why this is hard to grasp.>> Simple. He's addicted to the cookie. It's the cookie talking, not him.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<Saying "You are a cult, you are hateful" to someone offering a gift is pretty hateful.>> I do think you're in a cult and I don't say that because I hate you. I say it because I believe it. Cults tell you how to dress. Cults tell you how what to eat/drink or not eat/drink. Cults exclude you from other "non-believers". Cults strive to separate you from your own family if your family doesn't believe as you do. Cults have secret ceremonies that other people are not allowed to know about or even discuss. Cults encourage their members to marry and make lots and lots of babies. Cults use people's familiarity with other religions to trick them into thinking that the cult religion is the same. Cults generally are based on the "visions" of a man who tends to love having sex with lots and lots of women (and, a lot of the time, underaged girls). All cult-like behavior and NOT indicative of all religions.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <If you believe that *your* god and *your* savior is the only one, that *your* religion is the one true religion while everyone else's is false... you have put yourself above everyone else and judged them to be inferior.> I disagree. I do believe that my religion has authority of God, but I don't believe other people are inferior. There are tons of people out there better than me - and better than you. I do believe other churches do much good, teach good things, but they do not have god's authority. <It is bigoted to believe that you're going to an afterlife of eternal redemption, while everyone else outside of your belief system is getting eternal damnation> Good thing I don't believe that. I believe that every soul will be rewarded exactly what they need. I believe most people will go on to live in a glorious existence after this life.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <If you offer me a cookie and I say "no thanks, I like my kind of cookie better, that should be the end of it.> Well, if I really REALLY love that cookie, I might offer it to you more than once, just because I'm a nice guy. If you end up never taking the cookie, I'll the cookie in your name. Is that really offensive?
Originally Posted By utahjosh I should be more specific. I'll eat the cookie for you, and write down that fact that I ate it for you. I know, it's just insane and hateful and horrible to do such a thing.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 It's disrespectful if I ask you not to do that and you do it anyway. Even if you really really think it's a good cookie. Notice I never said it was hateful. But dustespectful, yes. As Mele pointed out, working to deny other people the same basic rights you enjoy (in this non-theocracy we live in).. that actually is hateful, even if not intended as such.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Josh is passive agressively playing the victim here. Again. He knows damn well what we're saying to him. He just chooses to tell us to f-off in his Mormon trained, robotic, cult-like way. Right back at him.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I don't mean to get rude or passive-agressive. I guess it's just how I act to avoid being actually aggressive. I apologize for saying things that are negative or combative. And I don't enjoy being railed upon, being a martyr in an online forum does not bring my joy. But I do feel very strongly about my faith, and I'll continue to tell people about it, defend it when it's derided, and correct falsehoods about it.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I do believe that my religion has authority of God, but I don't believe other people are inferior. There are tons of people out there better than me - and better than you. I do believe other churches do much good, teach good things, but they do not have god's authority.>> You will never understand the judgmental aspect of your statements. By claiming that other religions "do not have god's authority," you automatically judge the members of those churches as inferior. Period. If their religion isn't "good enough for god" then by definition, THEY ARE INFERIOR. Anyone -- ANYONE -- who claims their religion is sanctified by god's authority while the other religions are not, is looking down on others. That individual is indeed judging others. You judge others all the time, Josh, by claiming their spiritual beliefs are inferior to your Mormon beliefs and the LDS Church. Doesn't matter whether or not you can accept this aspect of yourself. It's how you are, it's how you treat others, all because you believe you have a hotline to god as a Mormon and others do not.
