Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<I'm not saying it's hypocritical to point that out, but it is hypocritical to disrespect someone for being disrespectful.>> I'm not calling them disrespectful...I am flat out saying that I believe they're in a cult and are perpetrating wrong, evil acts against people. I don't believe in God and the Devil as most people do. I think we each have those qualities within ourselves as individuals and when people gather, their good and evil becomes greater than the sum of their parts. While each individual Mormon may or may not be evil...once they join forces, they become far more evil. They can be disrespectful all the hell they want to. Again, I don't care about their attitudes and beliefs...it's when they act upon them against others when they cross over into "evil". And again, I would never vote to take away the right for Mormons to be Mormons...but they will and have voted to take away mine (well, if I lived in California, anyway). So there is no real equal comparison, here.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 SB, to be fair, Josh has pointed out that Mormons, unlike Evangelicals and others, don't actually believe in Hell for non-Mormons. They believe if you're good you'll go to something like Heaven, just not the highest level. You can call that condescending perhaps, but at least they don't consign non-believers to Hell as some others do. "I should say that calling someone's beliefs OR behaviours evil while complaining that they won't respect yours is hypocritical." Is it always, though? Wasn't Al Qaeda evil for killing 3,000 people because we're "at war with Islam" and desecrated their holy land (Saudi Arabia) by stationing troops there (which was what turned bin Laden against us?). An extreme example to he sure, but religious belief cannot be a " get out of criticism free" card if the actions are bad. Same with parents who won't treat their kids' illnesses, or, many would say, working to deny fellow Americans equal rights in this non-theocracy we live in.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<Before Prop 8, I didn't have any real feelings one way or another towards Mormons (as is the case with millions of other people). Their actions have changed opinions and it isn't hypocritical to point out that what they are doing is wrong.>> Thirty-nine states have laws defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. Thirty states have constitutional language defining marriage. Almost all of this legislation has been passed since 1996. Source: <a href="http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=16430" target="_blank">http://www.ncsl.org/default.as...id=16430</a> Clearly there is MUCH MORE at work here than the Mormon Church. Which is why I don't understand all the venom directed against one small group. Clearly there are a large number of people out there working to prohibit marriage between same-sex couples. A widespread effort is needed to change the minds of MANY. To target Mormon's on this issue seems counter-productive at best. Most mainstream religions in America would not allow their ministers/priests to perform a same-sex marriage. The Mormons have been more public about their views while most choose not to talk about it much or make ridiculous statements about "hating the sin but loving the sinner". At least the Mormons had the honesty to "put their money where their mouth is" on the issue. You can dislike their stance (as I do) but at least they aren't as hypocritical about it as most religions are.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>You can dislike their stance (as I do) but at least they aren't as hypocritical about it as most religions are.<< That's faint praise. Just because a religion is "up front" about their bigotry it certainly isn't something I'm about to laud them for. And again, "putting their money" is exactly the issue -- when a religion gets involved in the political process directly in terms of providing funding for candidates or political measures, I say, tax them to high heaven.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And of course, there's the whole Mormon history of plural marriages that makes their stance quite hypocritical indeed.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>A widespread effort is needed to change the minds of MANY.<< I agree. I also believe that in a generation or two, this will be pretty much as much of a non-issue as bi-racial marriages are today. Time is not on opponents' side, and they know it, hence the effort to put their bigotry into law.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 I think it's the fact that most people here are from CA, and the polls showed prop 8 failing until the Mormons very publicly poured a ton of money in, and then it passed something like 52-48. No one would have expected success in Alabama now. But CA yes. CA actually HAD equality for 6 months, and then it was taken away. Hence the greater disappointment/anger.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Kar2oonMan and Dabob put it best. But, RT, I am hostile towards all religious organizations who are bigoted and use their platform to enter politics. Not all denominations are guilty of this and, while I don't agree with their beliefs, I do not oppose them as I do the Fundys, Mormons, etc. Again, I do think the Mormon religion has numerous cult-like qualities that other religions do not have. They may share one or two aspects but Mormonism has too many to be ignored. I try to keep my negative feelings about religion in check. No really, I do try. This past year has been a real eye-opener for me in regards to what I believe to be true regarding religion and the nature of "God". It's been somewhat disheartening and it has made it harder not to express my negative views about them all...but, for the most part, I do believe in letting people be free to believe what they want. I don't particularly want to hear about it but as long as the message is truly positive, I do not interfere. (I might not "listen" but I'll pretend I am. That's something, right?) ;-)
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<when a religion gets involved in the political process directly in terms of providing funding for candidates or political measures, I say, tax them to high heaven>> I agree to an extent, but it would pretty much kill off every church in America. Whether it is Fundamentalist and Catholic support for anti-abortion efforts, Mormon opposition to same-sex marriage, or the more admirable (in my opinion) Catholic support for peace and social justice issues, they ALL do it!
Originally Posted By oc_dean >>But isn’t this fury against the church really driven by liberal Californian’s hatred for what the church did in regards to Prop 8? And is it right to hold one admittedly misguided decision on the part of the church against all Mormons everywhere?<< Roadtrip ... You really think it takes being one of those 'liberals' to see the wrong in what the Mormon's did in CA? Crossing the "state" line in more ways than one ..... Stepping into the state from their home of Utah .... to crossing the line between - "Separation between Church and State." Liberal or Conservative, Democratic or Republican, has (or - Should have) nothing to do with it! It should take nothing more than a human being of Common Sense, and a sense of decency to see what they did as wrong! And it goes beyond Prop 8! And if you think it's just Prop 8 .. do you ever bother to take a look at a long line of discrimination the church has held against gays for decades? Does it register with you at all ... the ridiculous notion they had about black people since the beginning... only up until this so called "revelation" in 1978? And do you give any thought to the near suicidal gay teens growing up in Mormon homes, who are either chastised or even THROWN out of their home, with no home to go to?! Oh sure ... the Catholics/Christians are as guilty as they are on these fronts - But any Catholic/Christian who goes by the Bible should also know - Jesus said absolutely ZERO about Gays. But the Mormons are a whole different kettle of fish - Who take their "beliefs" and Gay people to higher (and saddening) heights!
Originally Posted By oc_dean >> <<<I am calling out their behavior as evil...not their beliefs.>>> Their behaviour was based on their beliefs otherwise they wouldn't have got involved. <<<< So, religious beliefs should replace common sense, as a human being?
Originally Posted By oc_dean After following this entire thread ... I'm almost convinced .... Some people take their desire to be "religious" to such 'mystifying' heights in their heads .... that they care not - Any RATIONAL and LOGICAL point anyone tries to make. Even when those logical and rational points make a lot of valid sense!
Originally Posted By barboy We have 3 opinions about 'foul play', that is crossing over to another state to influence policy----reminds me of modern day 'border ruffian' behavior(anyone remember 'bleeding Kansas' whereby the neighboring 'show-me's' wanted Kansas as a slave state based on the doctrine of popular sovereignty?): ///The LDS Church spent millions on false advertising to get Prop 8 passed in our state....... The LDS Church injected itself into California politics./// ///Crossing state lines, spending millions of dollars, countless man-hours to take away fellow Americans rights. Stopping citizens from joining with the person they love./// ///Crossing the "state" line in more ways than one ..... Stepping into the state from their home of Utah .... to crossing the line between - "Separation between Church and State."/// Here's a two part rhetorical question for our three contributors(skinnerbox, mele and OC dean): 1) If the Utah based Mormon Church would have injected itself into California affairs by spending millions of dollars to *defeat* prop 8---California Marriage Protection Act---, would you still be outspoken about them sticking their beaks into others' business? 2) How about wanting to see them lose their tax exempt status? (this one is mostly for you, kar2toon but I'm hoping you others would jump in).
Originally Posted By oc_dean I don't quite understand if you are for the LDS Church or not, but I will answer your two points anyway, 1)" If the Utah based Mormon Church would have injected itself into California affairs by spending millions of dollars to *defeat* prop 8---California Marriage Protection Act---, would you still be outspoken about them sticking their beaks into others' business?" I don't agree with any church (Especially one like the LDS Church) sticking their beaks into anybody's business. Our country is SUPPOSE TO have a separation of Church and State, so why does a Church get to raise millions of dollars to influence a political vote ?? 2) "How about wanting to see them lose their tax exempt status? (this one is mostly for you, kar2toon but I'm hoping you others would jump in)." Of course I think churches should loose there tax exempt status. It is ridiculous that they get to handle millions and millions of dollars that they take by deceptive means from their congregations and don't get to pay tax like the rest of us. Nice work if you can get it, but in the rest of society this would be considered nothing more than criminal.
Originally Posted By u k fan Dabob2, I do have an answer to your point about Al Qaeda, but I don't want to lurch this topic off into a tangent that could become murky at best. I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your point, but I can't see any good coming from picking it apart either. Regarding Prop 8 I agree with Mele and others with similar views more than you probably know (though I do look at it with different eyes because of my Mormon heritage), but I called out Josh for not being a good ambassador for his views and when I thought the same about someone on the other side I felt it only fair to speak up.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Dabob2, I do have an answer to your point about Al Qaeda, but I don't want to lurch this topic off into a tangent that could become murky at best. I don't want you to think I'm avoiding your point, but I can't see any good coming from picking it apart either." Wouldn't bother me if you wanted to answer. Or, if you wanted to go with a less obvious evil, how about those parents who belong to a sect that doesn't believe in medical treatment, and believe in prayer alone to heal illness, and thus refuse to get medical help for their children? And those children then die? Do those parents get a "get out of criticism free card" just because they had sincere religious beliefs?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>2) How about wanting to see them lose their tax exempt status? (this one is mostly for you, kar2toon but I'm hoping you others would jump in).<< I strongly believe in separation of church and state. So regardless of which side of any political issue, if a church actively gives money to the political process, they should lose their tax exempt status. So in your example, I'd feel the same if the LDS was actively involved financially supporting either pro or anti gay marriage initiatives or politicians.
Originally Posted By u k fan <<<Or, if you wanted to go with a less obvious evil, how about those parents who belong to a sect that doesn't believe in medical treatment, and believe in prayer alone to heal illness, and thus refuse to get medical help for their children? And those children then die? Do those parents get a "get out of criticism free card" just because they had sincere religious beliefs? >>> Evil or otherwise, that's not the point I was making. Calling some one a derogatory term (which I would consider "evil" to be in this context) whilst complaining that people won't respect your wishes and views doesn't compute with me. I've said it. I believe it. I don't want this thread to become about definitions of evil. Not when we have the LP LDS Thread Carrousel to ride instead!!!
Originally Posted By u k fan Considering tithing is basically a subscription I don't see why that money couldn't be taxed. Don't get me started on tithing. I am absolutely opposed to it. My sister when she was alive and in the youth programme was told she couldn't go on a trip to the temple because she didn't pay tithing. She wasn't working, but was still expected to contribute what would have the equivalent of a couple of $$$'s. She was so upset and ashamed. I have yet to hear an argument that makes benefits in exchange for money sound good! I'm not having a good day today so probably shouldn't discuss it further!
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<1) If the Utah based Mormon Church would have injected itself into California affairs by spending millions of dollars to *defeat* prop 8---California Marriage Protection Act---, would you still be outspoken about them sticking their beaks into others' business?>> Absolutely YES!! Separation of church and state, baby. FOR EVERYONE! <<2) How about wanting to see them lose their tax exempt status? (this one is mostly for you, kar2toon but I'm hoping you others would jump in).>> I've already posted my thoughts on this. But absolutely they should lose their tax exempt status. Very few churches operate as non-political organizations these days. The vast majority of them should have lost their tax exempt status years ago.
