Originally Posted By melekalikimaka 1. Opposed to any church using their money and influence in this way. It's especially offensive when it's to take away legal rights. 2. Yup, tax tax tax them.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Calling some one a derogatory term (which I would consider "evil" to be in this context) whilst complaining that people won't respect your wishes and views doesn't compute with me." That's why I brought up Al Qaeda. I think most would agree that their actions have been evil, and justifying it with their religion doesn't fly. Similarly, the parents who won't get medical care for their kids. Justifying it with religion doesn't fly. And I think the same is true for the Mormons working to deny others rights. I didn't call it evil myself, but the semantics aren't my point. My point was that it's not "hypocritical" (a word that gets thrown around pretty carelessly sometimes) to say that religion can't be a consequence-free shield if the actions in question are bad.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Is there some better word for causing amoral, intentional pain upon thousands of people, while expecting others to be hyper-vigilant in their respect of you? How can a thoroughly offensive act (which is technically a way of life for these people as it was not a single act and is still occurring) be described in pleasant, non-offensive words? Not all opinions are correct, just as not all facts are correct. To say that I must use pretty language to describe hideous behavior is just bizarre. I have been told that, as a bisexual, any love I have with a woman is not equal to their love, that it will be the downfall of society, that I should hide who I am, that I am a danger to children, that I should not be afforded the same legal rights to be with my partner in their time of need (hospital, etc), I should not be allowed to adopt children, that I should either be celibate my entire life or force myself to marry someone of the opposite sex...the list goes on and on. And I can't say that's twisted and evil? Again, what fluffy, pretty words would you like for me to use?
Originally Posted By u k fan Mele, I have no interest in telling you what you can and can't say. I'm obviously not making my point clear. I don't know if I care to try. I'm not here to debate what's evil and what isn't. If I think calling people derogatory terms is evil and disrespectful than me calling someone evil and disrespectful is by my definition hypocritical. That's my last post on this particular matter.
Originally Posted By Labuda Ok, so I'm coming to this WAY late, but I have a question for you if you're still reading this Josh... regarding this quote: "In our understanding of the next life, God had 3 kingdoms of Glory - places that most people would call "Heaven" - that nearly every person who ever lived will end up." So does a Hell exist in Mormonism? If not, where do the souls of people who don't end up in one of the 3 kingdoms go?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "So does a Hell exist in Mormonism?" Any state where gay marriage is legal.
Originally Posted By utahjosh Labuda, "Hell" takes on different meanings for us, but the closest thing to the typical "Hell" is what we call outer darkness, a place where Satan will dwell. It's a place with no glory, no holiness, and we pretty much believe to get there, you have to tell God to His face that you think He's wrong. We don't think many people here on Earth will end up there with Satan. There is also a temporary place in the spirit world after we die called "Spirit Prison," where people unbaptized dwell until the final judgment. We don't believe it's a hellish place, and certainly not permanent, but sometimes it's referred to as Hell. The other "Hell" understood by our culture more that doctrine is ending up anywhere but the highest kingdom of God. Knowing we didn't fulfill our highest potential is a sort of a "hell."
Originally Posted By Labuda SO, here's a question... how do I find out if my dead Daddy and other dead relatives have been baptised Mormon? I know they would not appreciate it and want to make sure their names are removed posthaste if they're "on the rolls" so to speak.
Originally Posted By utahjosh I don't know. Labuda. Probably at familysearch.org. But if I were you I'd be pretty darn sure you are doing what you KNOW they would like, and not presume your 8th great grandfather isn't now happy his baptism was done for him. And hey - he might be MY great grandfather, too. We don't presume ANYTHING when we do the baptism for them. We offer them a choice to accept it or not.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "We don't presume ANYTHING when we do the baptism for them. We offer them a choice to accept it or not." You're offering dead people a choice?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 That's what they say. The very concept is weird to me. It's living people performing posthumous Mormon baptisms for people already dead. The dead then supposedly "accept" the Mormon baptism or not; presumably they see now that Mormonism is the way to go to attain the highest level of Heaven, so they accept. But if these levels of Heaven exist, with Mormonism being the highest, why not just have other already dead Mormons offer the Baptisms? Why do living Mormons have to do it? If the Mormons are so sure their dead relatives are still living up there, why not have the confidence to think that THEY could offer the non-Mormons a Mormon baptism up there? I'm sure there's some doctrinal reason for it. I'm just saying it (like lots of doctrines from lots of religions) makes no sense once you look a little more closely.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox So technically, I can game the system of heaven? Live my life as a non-Mormon and do whatever I stinkin' feel like doing, and then gain entrance into the eternal Mormon country club by simply accepting the baptism after I'm dead? If that's all it takes, then why would anyone stop their hedonistic ways and convert while still alive? You guys seem to be wasting lots of time and money on your missions, if that's the case. Folks in the know will simply wait until the post-mortem baptism in order to enter heaven. Talk about your eternal loopholes.
Originally Posted By tiggertoo <<So technically, I can game the system of heaven? Live my life as a non-Mormon and do whatever I stinkin' feel like doing, and then gain entrance into the eternal Mormon country club by simply accepting the baptism after I'm dead?>> I think it all comes down to what you know and feel is right. Most of us know that being charitable and loving to our neighbors is right (Matt. 37 - 40) so if we live by the standards that we genuinely feel is “good”, then we will be fine. It’s when you knowledgeably defy what you feel is right is when you run into trouble. I know non-Christian people who donate their time and funds to the needy who have a better chance at getting into heaven than some Popes.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<Most of us know that being charitable and loving to our neighbors is right (Matt. 37 - 40) so if we live by the standards that we genuinely feel is “good”, then we will be fine. It’s when you knowledgeably defy what you feel is right is when you run into trouble.>> I feel the same way. But given what Josh posted about the three levels of Mormon afterlife, it sounds as if none of that matters, as long as some Mormons baptize you post-mortem, and your 'spirit' accepts it. Seriously... that is about as far removed from what the big guy was preaching in the Beatitudes as you can get. Decades of debauchery washed away by acceptance into the Mormon eternal country club. Unbelievable.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>I'm sure there's some doctrinal reason for it.<< The idea is that God has commanded us to participate in certain ordinances here on Earth, presumably to show our devotion. Mormons basically believe this life is where it all has to happen. They've put all their eggs in this basket. Everything you do here on earth, which is essentially a test of one's devotion to God, will determine where you end up FOREVER. Born in China in 342 AD and never heard of Jesus before you died of pneumonia at age 26? Better accept that Mormon baptism or else! Of course, because he's God, he could waive these expectations, and it's kinda funny, those presumptions that he will are made in Mormonism (just like in all religions that aren't the Taliban) all the time. They want everything to be very black and white, but of course life doesn't work that way, so you constantly hear "Well, that's for the Lord to work out." It would be very easy to extend it to baptism for the dead.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>it sounds as if none of that matters, as long as some Mormons baptize you post-mortem, and your 'spirit' accepts it.<< Nah, in fairness, it actually does matter. Mormons believe in grace and works (which, ironically, is what leads to so many people saying they aren't true Christians). However, it just goes to my point above - there's this strange exactness to baptism for the dead. Mormons literally believe that every single person who has ever walked the earth will have to be baptized by one "holding authority." And yet...there's this complete ambiguity around what constitutes good works. So no matter if Hitler accepts his Mormon baptism or not, he doesn't get a free pass. But there's a wide range of behaviors and intentions that have been on Earth for all of human history - Mormons couldn't begin to explain who gets in and who doesn't based on their "works." They'll just say "it's up to God," which begs the question, why bother with the baptism at all? If it's up to God, can't he just say "well this person would've been baptized into my church if they'd been alive, so they're all good." It's the devotion to the superficial and nonsensical that's a hallmark of so many religions.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>I'm sure there's some doctrinal reason for it.<< <The idea is that God has commanded us to participate in certain ordinances here on Earth, presumably to show our devotion.> Oh, I get it's sort of a test for the currently living. I just wonder what difference it would make to the already dead, even in this world-view. Presumably this dead spirit, currently in Heaven but not the "highest" heaven, could be offered by an already-dead Mormon, or an angel, or God himself the opportunity to be Baptized a Mormon and thus get into the highest heaven. Why make THEM wait for their great-great-great-great-grandson to go on ancestry.com (which I understand is sort of the ulterior motive of that site - to trace everyone's ancestry and not just Mormons), or to otherwise get some living Mormon to baptize them posthumously? Presumably they'd be there, as in the Far Side cartoon, down on "cloud eight" envying all the fun up on the cloud just above them and would jump at the chance. And why would a loving God deny them that? It just doesn't make sense to me, and makes it clear that it's something the living made up for the living.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan What are the advantages to the higher levels of heaven? What's so bad about middle-level heaven, or even low-grade heaven for that matter? I'm a simple guy, I think middle-level heaven would suffice for me. Who wants to dress formal every night? Not me. Plus, so many rules -- it'd be like some crazy pearly gated community with the rules all the time. In heaven, I want to be able to decorate with plastic lawn flamingos if the mood strikes me and not have to get a bunch of guff about it from some uptight pursed-lipped snoots, thank you very much. Heaven sounds like some sort of timeshare plan in this version. Upgrade to the top level with additional points and you get a better view of forever, plus perhaps 1000 count silver lining in your cloud. Or, stay at Value Level heaven and it's nice, but the noise from the kids in the pool can get a bit trying. Can you imagine 500 years of "Marco... POLO!" just outside your room? Yikes.
Originally Posted By ecdc >>Plus, so many rules -- it'd be like some crazy pearly gated community with the rules all the time.<< The HOA is a nightmare. Gandhi (already on thin ice for the whole "brown skin thing") left his trash can out exactly eight minutes too long. Guess who's running the coach check in Kingdom Five now?
