Originally Posted By utahjosh <But what it does is essentially say that a Catholic or Orthodox or Presbyterian baptism... or heck, a BAPTIST baptism... isn't "good enough."> We believe that the baptism has to be performed by someone with proper authority from God. So even if it was done with good intention, the baptism still needs to be performed by someone with authority. Do I think your baptism is pointless? Not at all. It's a great symbol for being born again and probably give you strength and faith. We believe Jesus had that authority, gave it to his apostles, but when they were martyred and the world chose not to follow Jesus, that authority was taken from the earth. We believe Peter, James, and John visited Joseph Smith and gave him that authority, and it's meticulously passed on from person to person to use. It's precicely why we do baptisms for the dead - to make sure everyone, living and dead, will have the chance to accept of reject that "official" baptism. I can see why many would take that as arrogant or something, but to us it's a gesture of love.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <But if you're not Jewish, they respect you enough to not try to convert you. I like that.> It sure would be convenient to not feel the need to share the gospel and help people be converted. But that's not what Christ has asked his followers to do.
Originally Posted By dshyates "I can see why many would take that as arrogant or something, but to us it's a gesture of love." I am sure it is done with the best intentions, but you know what they say about "good intentions". And it really is no more arrogant than any other sect that believes that there way is the only way. That said, it really is arrogant and I am sure it is offensive to believers of other doctrines. How would you feel if the Catholics started baptizing dead Mormons because the weren't baptised by anyone of "authority", but by a new world cult?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>but to us it's a gesture of love<< To you. Read that again. To you. You say that you can understand why some people wouldn't like it, and yet, still feel compelled to support such a thing. >>arrogant or something<< Or something. Basically, it is dismissing whatever the deceased personally believed, whatever religious faith (or not) they chose in life. It's saying "We know better."
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <We believe that the baptism has to be performed by someone with proper authority from God.>> And we're done here. No one -- NO ONE -- has an exclusive hot line with the creator of the universe. We are all equal. We are all equal in the eyes of the creator. One river, many wells. No one owns the river.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "We believe Peter, James, and John visited Joseph Smith and gave him that authority, and it's meticulously passed on from person to person to use. " You can believe whatever you like. But you don't have the right to force your beliefs on the rest of us. And when you baptise my grandfather, say, against his will (and believe me, it would be), That's what you're doing. Or attempting to do, I should say, as it's my belief that our petty sectarian squabbles are less than trivial to God, who is probably amused and saddened by them in equal measure.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <How would you feel if the Catholics started baptizing dead Mormons because the weren't baptised by anyone of "authority", but by a new world cult?> I honestly wouldn't care one bit.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <No one owns the river.> I think it's fine you believe that. I believe Jesus owns the river, and we all must be baptized in it by someone ordained of God. That's fine, too.
Originally Posted By utahjosh <No one -- NO ONE -- has an exclusive hot line with the creator of the universe.> I think it's fine you believe that. I believe that Moses had an exclusive hotline. Noah as well. Jesus, too. And Peter. Also Joseph Smith.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I believe that Moses had an exclusive hotline. Noah as well. Jesus, too. And Peter. Also Joseph Smith." No more than Commissioner Gordon had a hotline to Batman. Seriously.
Originally Posted By utahjosh < But you don't have the right to force your beliefs on the rest of us. And when you baptise my grandfather, say, against his will (and believe me, it would be), That's what you're doing> I agree that we don't have the right to force our beliefs on anyone. Offering a baptism isn't forcing anything upon your grandfather. Not one bit. We don't consider someone that we've baptized by proxy a Mormon. All it means to us is that he has the option to accept it. If he chooses to say, "Ha - you losers just wasted your time, I'm ignoring that baptism!" then that's up to him.
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<I think it's fine you believe that.>> Actually, you don't. If you did, you wouldn't believe that Jesus owns the river. You would believe that no one owns the river, as I believe, if you actually felt that me having differing beliefs was 'fine.' Truth is, you don't think anyone's belief system outside of your own is good. You have chosen to believe in a religious dogma that completely rejects anyone else's perception of the divine. You clearly stated that you believe Jesus owns the river, and that only 'proper Christians' such as yourself (in other words, Mormons) can be baptized in that river and enter heaven. You don't accept the validity of my beliefs regarding deep ecumenism, much less anything else I believe, such as the rights for gays to marry. You make claims regarding acceptance of others that you cannot possibly support and defend, given your history of self-righteously defending the superiority of your church and its leaders over the decades. If you truly believe that they had an exclusive hotline to the creator of the universe when the vast overwhelming majority of humanity never has, then you cannot accept the validity of my belief that everyone is equal, no matter what dogma they accept as their personal truth.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Offering a baptism isn't forcing anything upon your grandfather. Not one bit." Of course it is. What crap. Remember when I said Mormons are worse than terrorists? Forcing your beliefs on people? Still applies.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "Offering a baptism isn't forcing anything upon your grandfather" It's attempting to. It also shows a complete lack of respect for the faith he had all his life. And it's condescending as, well, hell.
Originally Posted By dshyates Kind of a "my doctrine is better than your doctrine. So, since you are spiritually misguided, let us help you out." What amazes me is why Mormons have a hard time figuring out how offensive some of their arrogant and bigoted actions are to non Mormons. I have to believe they know it IS offensive, they just can't figure out WHY it is offensive. They are just trying to help (by calling other doctrines "unautherized" and peoples love unholy). What a way to win over peoples hearts.
Originally Posted By HongKongFoooy wow, there are a few scaredy cats running around in this alley! if you don't believe in all this mormon stuff, then how can it affect you if a mormon casts a baptism spell spell on you whether you're dead or alive? next you'll flip out about some creole lady with a bone in her nose making a voodoo doll of you and saying you're cursed. sorry charlies but casting bogus spells is hardly forcing anyone to receive anything. BOO!!!!!
Originally Posted By dshyates As an atheist, I am not at all concerned that different cults think theirs is "the way". Of course they do, or they wouldn't "believe" in their doctrine. It is how they treat non believers of their doctrine that concerns me. The spectrum goes from "live and let live" to "jihad". The Mormons fall somewhere in the middle.
Originally Posted By u k fan I haven't regularly attended church since I was about 13 so most of this temple stuff goes over my head. I guess my upbringing leads me to agree with the fact that anyone baptised after death has the choice to accept or reject it. I'm opposed to garage sales, but if someone on the street offers me a flyer about one I'm free to accept it or politely decline. Regarding the proper authority thing I completely understand how that sounds condescending, but as others have mentioned it's not exclusive to the LDS faith, I would have thought a heck of a lot of religions think they have the proper authority!!!
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Offering a baptism isn't forcing anything upon your grandfather. Not one bit.<< Please. Again, "offer" suggests some choice in the matter. There is none. The person is in their grave and if you choose to disregard what they believed while alive, by definition that's disrespectful. So please stop suggesting that is an "offer". Now, I have made plain as day my wishes in this thread -- I do not want any after-the-fact "offer" from the LDS. Put me on the afterlife do not call list, okay? Thanks. Offer rejected. Turned down. Snubbed. Let me rest in peace. And yet, I have a feeling that in spite of all that (and I do mean "in spite"), the "offer" will still be sent to my cold carcass.
