Originally Posted By Lisann22 <<<I feel so unworthy to pray because I know that I am not deserving to know God (no one is, really), let along talk to Him and expect that He hears me.>>> Not deserving to know God??? Aye yi yi, there is something seriously wrong with this. We are his children, he wants us to come to him. Is this your personal feeling or what you've learned?
Originally Posted By Mr X I'm glad you said "best" and "easiest" rather than "only" (which I've heard plenty of times from other catholics). Honestly, and I don't think you want to hear this, but I think that some find your assured answers to be offputing. Even many catholic officials have very different positions and points of view (I have heard of priests who are pro-birth control, for example)...so how can you possibly be SO SURE that you're view must be 100 percent correct? That's how it comes off sometimes. And the fact that you are angry about it is interesting.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><<<I feel so unworthy to pray because I know that I am not deserving to know God (no one is, really), let along talk to Him and expect that He hears me.>>> Not deserving to know God??? Aye yi yi, there is something seriously wrong with this. We are his children, he wants us to come to him.<< Yes, He does, but that doesn't automatically make us worthy. The Bible is pretty clear on the fact that we're all sinners. God's love and grace is what allows and enables us to approach Him. >>Is this your personal feeling or what you've learned?<< Both.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I'm glad you said "best" and "easiest" rather than "only" (which I've heard plenty of times from other catholics).<< Actually, for those who can and do know, they are actually obliged to it. Unlike human law, where ignorance thereof is no excuse, God will only judge us based upon what we know, or could have reasonably known (and God is certainly qualified to make that distinction). I don't, however, automatically say that Orthodox, protestants and non-Christians will roast in Hell. >>Honestly, and I don't think you want to hear this, but I think that some find your assured answers to be offputing. Even many catholic officials have very different positions and points of view (I have heard of priests who are pro-birth control, for example)...so how can you possibly be SO SURE that you're view must be 100 percent correct?<< Good point but it's not a matter of being a democracy and hoping that someday, things will "flip" and the Church will suddenly change her views on issues pertaining to faith and morality. Things don't work like that. When I say something definitively, it's because I can back it up, not with what Father Bob over here in the local Catholic Community has to say, but with what the Magisterium (big fancy word but quicker to type than "Official Teaching Office") of the Church actually teaches. There are a lot of people who disagree with the Church but they are not the arbiter of what is truth. Jesus actually left that up to the Church, not Father Bob or Sister Jane. >>That's how it comes off sometimes. And the fact that you are angry about it is interesting.<< I'm not angry, I'm disappointed. How would you like it if you were being called a sanctimonious, self-righteous, obnoxious hypocrite because you dared to give voice to your sincerely held beliefs? Sincerely, The sanctimonious, self-righteous, obnoxious hypocrite whose piety is only for show.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>How would you like it if you were being called a sanctimonious, self-righteous, obnoxious hypocrite because you dared to give voice to your sincerely held beliefs?<<< Who says I haven't been?
Originally Posted By DlandJB So now I'm santcimonious. By calling me that, it is being said that I am faking my faith and belief or that I am hypocritical in that belief. I really appreciate that. Really. Now please back it up or apologize.>>> I'm not yet reading ahead so I'm responding back about 30 posts. I do apologize for hurting your feelings. By "sanctimonious" I meant that you are acting "excessively pious" as mele pointed out. I think you are very, very zealous about your faith and I don't think you are faking or acting hypocritical. However, you are acting, as my very devotely Catholic late father used to call it "More Catholic than the Pope." Well, maybe not this current Pope...but the last 4 at least. I hope you understand this is not meant as a condemnation but more as unsolicited advice from someone who is almost twice your age and is simply trying to give you the benefit of experience (whether you want it or not). I also studied the faith for 16 years of schooling, minored in theology and even had the benefit of attending a college that was attached to a seminary. Whether you mean to our not, your posts pass judgement on others and that is very harmful and comes across at least as excessive pride. You don't have all the answers - no one does. Now I'd better go read the next 30 posts.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Ok - now I'm caught up. CM, you are acting silly. Get over yourself. You made an adult decision to embrace the faith, so please drop the temper tantrum. The discussion from me has been about your behavior, not you personally. You've made some very telling remarks about not feeling worthy of God's love and grace. Well, no one could be, but the joy of the thing is that He gives it to us anyway. Why do you prefer the guilt to overshadow the joy? "Fear" of the Lord means reverance to me - not real fear. Why would anyone fear the one who loves them the most? The bottom line should not be about who is not worthy. He made us worthy through his sacrifice and resurection. That is cause for joy and a release from fear -- which as I understand it is really a manifestation of a lack of faith. We will have to agree to disagree. If you want to take the Opus Dei road, that is your choice. I prefer to worship with a smile.
Originally Posted By Tiggirl Parts of this thread remind me of a quote from the movie Dogma: "I have issues with anyone who treats faith as a burden instead of a blessing. You people don't celebrate your faith; you mourn it." Just something that made me thing. Back to lurking in WE. ~Beth
Originally Posted By Lisann22 Thank you JB, you said it much better than I ever could besides the fact I'm trying to work and play at the same time. ;> This is one of my most favorite writings about feeling unworthy: "God’s love for us is already absolute, already complete. This love is perhaps the very foundation of creation. But though we may take God’s love for granted, we should attempt to live a life that is pleasing to God. We should try and make ourselves reflections of the love God so freely bestows upon us." So feelin unworthy and being undeserving are completely different to me.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>Why do you prefer the guilt to overshadow the joy?<<< What? A guilt-ridden Catholic? How could THAT be? Although I always figured you had to be BORN into it for greatest detrimental effect.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Parts of this thread remind me of a quote from the movie Dogma:>>> As profane as it is, I loved the way Kevin Smith presented his theology in that movie. Thanks for mentioning it.
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF This has all been interesting. My own spirituality has been a MAJOR issue, particularly over the past year and a half. I am trying to undo a lot of the damage done from the past where religion is concerned. My confusion and animosity have, I think, made me a difficult person to be around, in some ways. I am at the point where I don't know what to believe anymore. I feel I can't make a decision or guide myself on my own terms because it's hard to divorce myself from the distortions I learned as a child. A religious and spirtual life is supposed to be of comfort and joy in life, or that's what I'm told. The prospect has only brought fear and terror. I think the best I can do is treat people the way I want to be treated and do my part in leaving the world a better place, in whatever terms that may be. How can that be wrong? (Don't mind me...I'm just rambling...) -- Tim
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Originally Posted By cmpaley >>However, you are acting, as my very devotely Catholic late father used to call it "More Catholic than the Pope." Well, maybe not this current Pope...but the last 4 at least. << Oh, trust me, I could introduce you guys to an online group that makes me look like a completely ignorant non-Catholic.
Originally Posted By thmar People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; Forgive them anyway. If you are kind, People may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; Be kind anyway. If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; Succeed anyway. If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; Be honest and frank anyway. What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; Build anyway. If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous; Be happy anyway. The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; Do good anyway. Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; Give the world the best you've got anyway. You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God; It was never between you and them anyway. -Mother Teresa-
Originally Posted By DlandJB Oh, trust me, I could introduce you guys to an online group that makes me look like a completely ignorant non-Catholic.>>> I'm sure you could. But I know you, and I know you have a good heart. And try hanging out with Jesuits sometime if you want to feel truly challenged!
Originally Posted By DlandJB Re: #195 I believe that was actually written by a hindi poet named Om Vashishth, but it is beautiful and I'm sure Mother Theresa would have seconded it.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>You've made some very telling remarks about not feeling worthy of God's love and grace. Well, no one could be, but the joy of the thing is that He gives it to us anyway. Why do you prefer the guilt to overshadow the joy? "Fear" of the Lord means reverance to me - not real fear. Why would anyone fear the one who loves them the most?<< Honestly, you sound like my last two confessors, both of whom are good, orthodox Catholic priests. The first one told me that I should remember God is a loving Father who cares for us. Last night, my regular confessor told me I shouldn't make such a big deal over what are, essentially, venial sins. He warned me that if I didn't stop being scrupulous in confession and about confession, he'd give me 4 million Rosaries as a penance. I've also read that the worst thing one can do is mull over confessed sins. I have to learn to only remember the absolution and the part where Father says, "Your sins are forgiven, go in peace." I've said here that it's only by God's grace that we can be in relationship to Him. I admit that I am a bit hard on myself. Anyone whose met me can guess that I actually have a pretty low self-esteem (for obvious reasons), so I kinda put my own feelings upon God. Fact is, though, I only have to reach into my pocket and take out my Rosary to see proof of God's absolute love for me. Yeah, that was rambling, but I guess it needed to be said, yes?
