Originally Posted By DyGDisney If you doubt that we are born sinners, consider a baby. Babies are the most selfish people imaginable. Selfishness is sin. Small children lie to protect themselves from getting in trouble, lying is a sin. Gossiping is a sin, coveting is a sin, thinking bad thoughts, lust, the list goes on. Who do you know of who was perfect? ALL have sinned!
Originally Posted By DlandJB If you doubt that we are born sinners, consider a baby. Babies are the most selfish people imaginable. Selfishness is sin. Small children lie to protect themselves from getting in trouble, lying is a sin. Gossiping is a sin, coveting is a sin, thinking bad thoughts, lust, the list goes on. Who do you know of who was perfect? ALL have sinned! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has to be intent and understanding that ones actions are wrong in order for sin to be committed. Babies act on instinct, not on selfishness. Young children are not considered culpable for their actions because they don't have the capacity to understand right and wrong (although we hope their parents are working on it with them) until they are about 7. "Original sin" isn't the same as personal sin.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka original sin –noun 1. Theology. a. a depravity, or tendency to evil, held to be innate in humankind and transmitted from Adam to the race in consequence of his sin. b. inclination to evil, inherent in human nature. ______ I know that human beings are flawed but the idea that we are inherently drawn to evil because of Adam's sin...it's just too much for me. My mom always treated me as if I was bad. I was born bad. I will always be bad. Everything I do is bad. Needless to say, I have a lot of issues after growing up like that. I understand that Original Sin isn't exactly like my mom's theory...it does have some similarities, also. At least there is a concept of "Original Blessing" or at least some sort of redemption at the end. I just think it's an odd concept. Maybe I'm just too new-agey but the concept is too negative for me.
Originally Posted By DyGDisney Ooh, I didn't mean that babies were able to understand the sin, or would be punished for the sin if they died. I guess I didn't express myself right. I believe that babies and young children that die go to heaven, because they do not have the knowledge that they are being sinful, or that they should behave differetly. I am just saying we have a sinful nature. I know I am selfish, probably daily. I know I think bad thoughts, probably daily. I know I sin, probably daily. I don't know the magic age where children start being held responsible, I just believe if there was never sin in the world, there would be no selfishness or lying or gossip or lust or greed or..... Sorry Mele that you had to go through that.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>There has to be intent and understanding that ones actions are wrong in order for sin to be committed. Babies act on instinct, not on selfishness. Young children are not considered culpable for their actions because they don't have the capacity to understand right and wrong (although we hope their parents are working on it with them) until they are about 7. "Original sin" isn't the same as personal sin.<< Well said! Original sin is not guilt but the inhereted defect that our first parents passed down to us. We are born spiritually dead and incapable of searching for God without His enabling grace.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>Before I tackle the "faith alone" issue, I'd like to ask you...you say that all have sinned. That includes every single human being who ever lived from Adam and Eve to the present, right?<< Yes. This however excludes Jesus Christ because, even though He was born as a human, He was God made flesh. He was a perfect, sinless being of course, God does not sin.<< Oh, darn. You caught my little apologetics trap. ;-) Now, let's take a moment and understand why Mary is given such honor. She was declared "theotokos" (Mother of God) at the Council of Ephesus. The controversy (which is why most Councils were convened) at hand was whether or not Christ was one person who had two natures (Divine and Human) or whether His two natures represented to persons, one divine and one human. The controversy was settled by declaring that Jesus is indeed ONE person with two natures. Since a mother gives birth to a PERSON and not a nature, Mary is rightly called Mother of God. As such, it would stand to reason that God would want a person who was free from the stain of all sin through which He could come into the world. That is why Mary was, by a singular and special grace, preserved from the stain of original sin and personal sin (she could have chosen badly, like Adam and Eve did, but she didn't). Now, you may think, "where does it say that in the Bible?" Well, in every single protestant protestant version, it doesn't, but it does in the original Koine Greek of Luke 1:26-29. "In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!" But she was greatly troubled at the saying and considered in the mind what sort of greeting this might be. Now, note something there. Gabriel says, "Hail, full of grace." I know, in your Bible, it probably says, "Highly favored one" or somesuch. The Koine Greek word that is translated as "highly favored one" in protestant Bibles and "full of grace" in the Bible is "kecharitomene." It is the perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis). This means that Mary was endowed with grace by God for a purpose...so she could be the vessel into which came the God-Man, Jesus Christ. Trust me, I didn't become a Catholic lightly. I've studied this stuff long and hard. Once understood rightly, veneration of Mary becomes natural and here's why. First, she's Christ's mother and Jesus honored her (and still does...consider...He's without sin and would not violate the Fourth Commandment). Second, Mary ALWAYS obeys God. Third, she ALWAYS points people to Christ and directs us to obey Him in all things. Fourth, she, along with all the other saints in heaven, prays for us all. Finally, she is the mother of the Davidic King. That makes her the Queen (Davidic kings had concubines, so his wives couldn't be queen...thus, the king's mother became the Queen Mother...1 Kings 2:19) of Christ's realm. That makes her OUR Queen. What I don't understand is why it is only the Catholics and the Orthodox who are the ones who fulfill Mary's prophecy that "all generations will call me blessed." Luke 1:48.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>We are born spiritually dead and incapable of searching for God without His enabling grace.<<< Except for Mary who got a pass. How is THAT fair? Obviously it is within god's power to allow us to be born spiritually alive. Lucky Mary, huh.
Originally Posted By cmpaley The definition of Original Sin that was posted in post 323 is rather protestant. Let's look at the Church who defined the doctrine first has to say about what it is. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers; subject to ignorance, suffering, and the domination of death; and inclined to sin. (This inclunation is called "concupiscence.") That's not depravity, it's a weakened nature, subjection and an inclination toward sin. That doesn't make you bad, it makes it easier to choose the bad and harder to choose the good. Now, of course babies are free from actual personal sin. This notion that babies are selfish is rather silly. What is a baby to do when he or she is hungry, in need of a diaper change or in pain? Just lay there and voluntarily offer it up or cry and get its immediate NEEDS met. It's only when a child starts to grow up that he or she learns about possessions and that's when selfishness sets in.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>>>We are born spiritually dead and incapable of searching for God without His enabling grace.<<< Except for Mary who got a pass. How is THAT fair?<< No one said anything about fairness. >>Obviously it is within god's power to allow us to be born spiritually alive. Lucky Mary, huh.<< Mary was born for a specific mission...to be the mother of the Messiah. Don't think she didn't suffer as a result of what her Son went through. She suffered in her heart (Luke 2:35) along with her Son as He underwent His Passion. As a man, it's tough enough to see your child in pain but for a mother, it's far, far worse. Considering the absolute innocence of both Mary and Jesus, it's that much WORSE. Lucky Mary? Hardly!
Originally Posted By Mr X No one said anything about FAIRNESS? I thought god was just. I think it says something about that in the bible too. Singling out even one person for personal use, favoritism, or whatever, means that god is not just.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>No one said anything about FAIRNESS?<< Nope. Show me anywhere in Scripture or Cathoilc Tradition where God is "fair." >>I thought god was just. I think it says something about that in the bible too.<< Just and merciful. >>Singling out even one person for personal use, favoritism, or whatever, means that god is not just.<< Then how is it that God moved throughout salvation history? What about Noah or Moses or Abraham or the Hebrew nation, or Peter or Paul? Most certainly God chooses individuals for specific purposes in order to bring about the salvation of humankind. If these people never lived, then salvation would not have been a possiblity for anyone. God, in His mercy AND His justice, worked out a plan to save mankind. His justice requires atonement but His mercy provides the means of that atonement. We have only to respond and adhere to Him in faith and love.
Originally Posted By cmpaley Once again, if God, in His mercy, didn't move in the lives of individuals throughout history, salvation would be impossible. If God were ONLY just, then every human ever born and who will ever be born would be roasting in hell right now. God is not ONLY just, He is also merciful. It is becuase of His MERCY that we have the opportunity for salvation. Justice without mercy is cruelty. God is not cruel, He is perfectly good and loving.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>If God were ONLY just, then every human ever born and who will ever be born would be roasting in hell right now.<<< Maybe god's just selfish then, and doesn't want to be lonely.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Fair and just are the same thing.>>> That's not what I've understood. When justice is served in a court of law, it isn't always the most fair decision, but the one that fits the situation best. "Fair" to me has always had that sort of "everything in equal measure" feeling to it (like a "Fair share"). Is it fair that someone could live a blameless life for 65 years, and then die and go to heaven and at the same time someone else could live a sinful depraved life, make a deep and absolutely sincere turn of heart at the last moments of their life and accept the Lord and also end up in heaven right next to the other guy? It isn't fair, as we have been raised to understand fair. But it is "just" if we have God's promise that all we need to do is accept Him to be saved. It doesn't make sense, but it really isn't our call. And I agree, it sounds crazy. Without faith, of course it would.
