Originally Posted By Mr X Good point. I just used "Just" instead of "fair" cause I thought it would make more sense to the biblical-minded. You're right though, if this religion IS the truth it is patently UNfair.
Originally Posted By DlandJB if this religion IS the truth it is patently UNfair.>>> It at least seems that way because we only see things "through a glass darkly" as they say. In other words, our reality is 3 dimensional, but who is to say that other realities with more dimentions don't also exist on a different plane, and that what we consider fair and just in this reality is only half the story in another plane? I'm really wrong to try and intellectualize it -- I'll leave that to the Jesuits. What I feel and what I believe come from my heart and my gut as much as from my head.
Originally Posted By Mr X Shouldn't you be questioning whether you truly want eternal life with god, or something?
Originally Posted By cmpaley The Thomists (adherents to St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologia) have the Jesuits pegged. ;-) Due to my Lutheran background, I trend Augustinian in thought.
Originally Posted By Mr X Reading up on purgatory, I found that "prayers for the dead" can really be useful in staving off the torture (or expediting the stay, or however it works). Assuming that my deathbed confession works out well, and I simply have to endure some hard time in the limbo/fire world...I wonder if THESE might be a good investment... <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_Bank_Notes" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H ell_Bank_Notes</a>
Originally Posted By jonvn "No one said anything about fairness." Right. Just logic and reason, for which this entire set of concepts defies.
Originally Posted By Mr X Hey Jon, I once had a religion teacher at my Catholic school tell me that the dinosaurs were an impossibility. When, being a young punk, I inquired further...I was told that "the dinosaur bones were PLANTED there by god, in order to test our faith in the face of logic". Brilliant. I kinda wish god had planted cooler stuff though, like alien spaceships and 50 legged human bodies and TVGuides from 1 million years ago and stuff like that.
Originally Posted By jonvn Oh good. That is but one area where all these nonsense ideas fall down. Aside from very basic logic, they fly in the face of direct evidence that we can go out and find for ourselves. What is interesting in all this is how a person, or persons, can believe in something utterly irrational and totally lacking in any sense at all. You have to ask why. What makes anyone pick up this stuff and think it is worth bothering with at all? It just comes back to that people believe anything they are told without question, and do not think. Period. This is why we get wars, why we get racism, and why we get every other ill on this planet that we inflict upon ourselves. Mindless following of empty words and meaningless trite phrases that have nothing to do with our lives, yet people allow these insanities to govern them. It doesn't shed a good light on humanity.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>You have to ask why.<<< Because mortality is scary? >>>people believe anything they are told without question, and do not think<<< Well, in this case, I think it's more along the lines that people will believe any "supposed" answer to questions that they really, REALLY wish we had answers to. >>>It doesn't shed a good light on humanity.<<< But then we have the other side, the Beethovens, the Picassos, the Churchhills, the Lincolns (all of whom, i believe, were religious?). There's a lot of good out there too. Maybe I'm stupid, but I prefer to be optimistic (I do have a 2 year old girl...how can I NOT at least HOPE that humanity will improve!!??).
Originally Posted By cmpaley This is ridiculous. I'm not going to post in these topics anymore. There's no use having a discussion with people who won't take these things seriously. Jesus said something about "casting pearls before swine."
Originally Posted By jonvn "Because mortality is scary?" I kind of think of it as more sad than scary. Having to die and not see how your kids live and their kids is really what is bad about dying. Death is what happens to everything alive. No one sane wants to die, but it's not avoidable. It's just a sad loss. "There's no use having a discussion with people who won't take these things seriously." Of course I don't take this seriously. It's insane. "Jesus said something about "casting pearls before swine."" Yes, that's the response from everyone who faces opposition to the basically crazy set of ideas put forth by the religious. But it's not pearls before swine, it's utter nonsense before the rational.
Originally Posted By DlandJB What is interesting in all this is how a person, or persons, can believe in something utterly irrational and totally lacking in any sense at all.>>> Yeah, It does when you look at without faith. In my life, however, there have been enough incidents that have given me a glimpse, however fleeting, of something more than what is rational and sensible. I prefer to think outside the box then think about spending eternity inside one. I'm not every going to try and convince you otherwise, jonvn. You have the right to your opinion. However, whenever you post, I hear Paul Simon singing "I am a Rock" and I wish more than that for everyone.
Originally Posted By jonvn You honestly expect me to consider your "faith," which I call blind and empty superstition as something that is anything other than nonsense? So you've had a few coincidences in life. That does not make for miracles. Your faith is meaningless, as are any "religious" beliefs you feel you have. I am no "rock," unlike Peter. So if you can present some shred of evidence, I'm perfectly able to say, ok, fine. But you can't, because there simply isn't. I don't consider seeing the face of the Madonna in a grilled cheese sandwich evidence, by the way. As far as I'm concerned christianity, and every other religion including voodoo and the worshiping of Odin, is all pretty much the same thing: A pile of irrational beliefs that have manifested themselvs in an attempt to explain what was not understood. As we understand more and more, religious ideas become less and less useful. We don't need a god of thunder anymore, or Apollo pulling his chariot across the sky dragging the sun with him. You've got faith? Great. I've got history and reality. I'll take that over a self indulgent fantasy any time.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy Apollo never pulled the chariot across the sky. That was Helios, the Titan (those predated the Olympians) who was the the sun god. Just as Selene was the moon goddess. It wasn't until later that Apollo and Artemis the twins were confused as being the god and goddess of the sun and moon. However, Apollo, as the god of light (among many other fields), was the only other deity whom Helios would allow to drive his chariot; he just didn't every day, nor even most days. And that's my historical reality of Greek mythology. ;-)
Originally Posted By DlandJB So you've had a few coincidences in life. That does not make for miracles.>>> I never said miracles -- although there have been a couple...I said "glimpses." No matter, the distinction would be lost on you. And you misread my Rock reference too. Mores the pity. As I said, I'm not trying to change your mind...just exercising my right to share mine. And if all turns out to be fantasy..well, I'll never know, will I?
Originally Posted By jonvn Glimpses. yes, everyone has had "gllmpses," from mormons and catholics to scientologists to voodoo priestesses who cut up chickens and divine the future through entrails. The distinction is not lost on me. It is simply meaningless. "And if all turns out to be fantasy..well, I'll never know, will I? " Except for the harm you cause other people and society in general with your primitive superstition that you like to masquerade as "religion." You believe what you want. I suppose the lies that religion tells people are some comfort to them, for whatever reason. Today, it's when people die. And everyone will be with Jesus afterwards. That is the comfort now. Before, it was trying to explain how natural forces worked. We've come a long way since the days when we lived in the hollows of trees and in caves, so we don't use religion any more to explain these more simple phenomena. But we still don't know about after death experiences, so we use it chiefly for those purposes now. Layered on top of this very basic function is a lot of ritual and senseless, and I truly mean senseless, ritual that gives people a lot of things to do in their lives to make sure they do get to the proper afterlife. It's busy work. It's there to keep you in line, and to control you in a hierarchy. So don't try and justify your caveman ideaology, because there is none. Your ideas about whatever insanity you believe in don't qualify you to take a superior air on the matter. Quite the opposite. By believing in irrational unsubstantiated beliefs, based on a load of gibberish and false concepts, you've succumbed to the base instinct of primitive man, huddled together for warmth.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan And yet, it is with a rather fervent faith that you believe there is no God, no afterlife. You yourself admit we don't know with 100% certainty what happens after death, yet you have concluded that all religion is therefore false and nonsense with no real evidence at all. Atheism is quite often as zealous and passionate a faith as any religion, and it's proponents indeed often seem on a mission of conversion, just like people in religious orders. I would think that to an atheist, none of this would matter a bit, except perhaps in issues where churches attempt to extend their influence into the political, state and legal realm. But time and again we see that isn't the case.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder Since there's no hard evidence either way, a non-believer has as much faith in a perceived "nothingness" as a believer does. To that extent, post 354's rant is rather hypocritical.
