Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<Except for the harm you cause other people and society in general with your primitive superstition that you like to masquerade as "religion.">> There might be some people in the world who use religion to harm other people but JB isn't one of them!
Originally Posted By jonvn No, it's not. You don't go around making up stuff that has no basis in reality and then start believing in it as a sacrosanct truth. That is absolute nonsense. Given that, if you can provide a shred of a real reason as to any of these beliefs, then you'd have something. But none of them have that. Because they are false systems of belief based on primitive superstition
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan You don't go around making up stuff that has no basis in reality<< But to the faithful, it is very reality-based. You'd like to paint anyone who is religious as an ignorant Neanderthal pointing and grunting at the sky, but you admit that you don't have proof there is no life after death. You may not believe there is, but you can't prove it. So, you take it on faith that there isn't. In other words, don't go around making stuff up that has no basis in reality and then start believing it as sacrosanct truth.
Originally Posted By jonvn "There might be some people in the world who use religion to harm other people but JB isn't one of them!" As long as anyone promotes superstition and irrational beliefs, they are causing harm. This is the path which leads to holy wars, murders, my god is better than your god, and so on. All of it based on empty and foolish "faith."
Originally Posted By jonvn "But to the faithful" Faithful to what? Something that has absolutely nothing to show its existence? Something made up by someone else and repeated so often people just think it's right? That's not faith. That is foolish gullibility. "you admit that you don't have proof there is no life after death." That's right. And until some can be shown, there is absolutely no reason to think that there is one. I don't take it on "faith" that there isn't. There is just no evidence to indicate that there is, therefore, there is nothing to indicate a reason to believe that there is.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>This is the path which leads to holy wars, murders, my god is better than your god, and so on.<< No, it isn't. Intolerance of others' beliefs is what leads to wars, murders, etc. Keep that straight.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Who's putting on "superior airs" now?" Sorry, but when people say something to me about "not understanding" something that is at its basis utterly insane and irrational, then yeah, I'm going to be a little annoyed because it is foisting onto me some crazy idea that has no basis in truth, as if I should simply accept and understand it. And somehow, I'm the one at a loss because I am not interested in ascribing any validity to such nonsense? Sorry, no. You want to have faith in something? Have faith in death and taxes. That is what you are truly most assured of.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "That is foolish gullibility." Works both ways. A fervent believer in God can say you were gullible enough to buy into the idea God doesn't exist. Thing is, you're both on level ground. You've got nothing concrete to prove God doesn't exist, and as far as you're concerned, they've got nothing to show you, despite the fact they claim they do.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>I don't take it on "faith" that there isn't.<< Of course you do. You can't prove definitively that there is no life after death, so, you have decided that with a lack of evidence that there IS life after death, it must not exist. That's faith, brother, like it or not. Believing in something with a lack of physical evidence is faith.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Sorry, but when people say something to me about "not understanding" something that is at its basis utterly insane and irrational, then yeah, I'm going to be a little annoyed because it is foisting onto me some crazy idea that has no basis in truth, as if I should simply accept and understand it." But there's the rub. Nobody's foisting anything on you. Don't go to church. Don't believe, that's your choice. Just the same, when people want to talk religion, don't butt in unsolicited and tell them they're all a bunch of cavemen huddling for warmth. Let them have their beliefs. What's it to you?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>And until some can be shown, there is absolutely no reason to think that there is one.<< People of faith believe that God has shown His presence in a variety of ways, both spiritual and physical throughout the ages. They may all be making it up. Or you might be wrong. Until the Wright Brothers came along, there were many who believed that man would never fly. Imagine telling them two hundred years ago that not only would man fly, but he'd fly in aircrafts weighing thousands of pounds, and to the moon no less. They'd have locked you up.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Intolerance of others' beliefs" The Crusades, were not about intolerance of other people's faiths. It was about taking the Holy Land back for the Christians. The Inquisition was not about intolerance, but about a terror campaign to keep the faithful in line. But let us assume that what you say is absolutely 100% correct. That it is the intolerance of other beliefs that cause it. Let's just say it is true. When you start believing in something that really makes no sense, somewhere else in the world you are going to find people who see that belief for what it is. A false religion. A false god. Of course, these other people also have their religion, based on their own insanities which they think is perfectly reasonable. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is going to look at it and say that it is a false religion and a false god, and that it is wrong. One group says god wears a green paper hat on thursdays, the other says he wears a blue. It's all made up tripe, and none of it makes a bit of sense to anyone giving any of it a minute of thought. But the people who control the populations, they use this. They use it to control the public, and they use it to exploit them for money and power. That's how it works. You get crazed killers like Bin Laden doing it, and you get tinpot wannabes like Pat Robertson doing it. The same shtick. So perhaps that IS the one true religion in the world, because it is the one aspect that they all share together. Greed and meglomania.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Greed and meglomania.<< In that, religious people are not alone. >>When you start believing in something that really makes no sense, somewhere else in the world you are going to find people who see that belief for what it is. A false religion. A false god. Of course, these other people also have their religion, based on their own insanities which they think is perfectly reasonable. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is going to look at it and say that it is a false religion and a false god, and that it is wrong.<< Yes. That is intolerance of others beliefs. That's where hate and wars and persecution take root, among other things like greed and hunger for power, or favoring one political ideology over another. None of which proves your assertion that all religion is hokum.
Originally Posted By LPFan22 ~~All of it based on empty and foolish "faith."~~ You are entitled to your opinion. Faith is about trust. We all trust in something or someone whether it's related to religion or not. My faith in God is no less harmful to you than your intolerance is to me.
Originally Posted By jonvn "buy into the idea God doesn't exist." Show me where he exists, and I believe in an instant. I don't buy into ANY idea where there is no reason to believe. If, on the other hand there is reason, then of course I would believe. You can't prove a negative. I can't prove that there is no god. I can simply say that there is no reason to believe there is, as there is no evidence to suggest there is one. Therefore, lacking any evidence there is no reason to believe. "Nobody's foisting anything on you." Actually, yes, they are. They are trying to tell me that I'm going to hell, they are trying to tell me I don't understand, they are trying to someone do whatever to get me to follow their beliefs. They knock on the door of my house, at which point they get a lecture, I hear it all the time from religious broadcasters and our moron in chief. Seeing so much base prmitivity is unpleasant and shows we have a long way to go as a species to mature. "don't butt in unsolicited " This is a discussion board discussing religion. Is it not? I'm discussing it, am I not? I'm not butting in. And the what's it to me part is that it causes a lot of grief and sorrow in the world. Everything going on right now with Israel, terrorists, all sorts of other problems are directly laid at the feet of religion. That's what it is to me. I may become a victim of some religious freak, moslem, christian, jew, or whatever, because they are insane and believe in insane things. When you stop believing in irrational faith, and you stop believing that they are wrong, you are right, at even the TINIEST level, then you can begin to see how horrifically wrong such things are, and how maybe one day the world can be a better place for the living. That's what it is to me. "People of faith believe that God has shown His presence in a variety of ways, both spiritual and physical throughout the ages." People believe what they want to believe, in order to do what they want to do. People used to believe in Apollo, people used to believe in Odin. People still believe if you cut a chicken open, and look at its guts, you can divine the future. People believe in Ouija boards and tarot cards. People believe if you break a mirror, you get seven years bad luck. What people believe, when that belief is based on factless superstition is meaningless. "They may all be making it up. Or you might be wrong." I could be completely wrong. Show me a reason why I am wrong. I am not the least bit unequivocable about this. I've said all along, show me a reason to have faith in something that simply is not there, and that there is no reason to think something is there. Show me something there to have faith in. Show me some actual evidence. Not that you personally believe, not that you personally have faith, that doesn't have any real value. Show me something I can believe, but I only believe things that are real. "Until the Wright Brothers came along, there were many who believed that man would never fly." That is not exactly true. People had been working on it for a long time. DaVinci even drew up plans for a glider. Otto Lillienthal made gliders in Germany, and flew in them before the Wright Brothers invented their powered aircraft. The Wright Brothers, by the way were in a race with other inventors all trying to do the same thing. Again, let us assume what you say is true, though. That people did not believe man could fly. A false belief. Based on what? Lack of information. You don't believe something unless you are shown it to be true. And you don't make up things about a subject matter if you don't know it to be true. The very idea that people could not fly is exactly the same sort of religious idea that people take on "faith," ideas that have no fundamental basis in fact.
Originally Posted By jonvn "In that, religious people are not alone." That makes it the universal religion of humanity, then, doesn't it. "That is intolerance of others beliefs." Yes, as I said, assuming that what you said is correct, that it is the intolerance of other beliefs in the irrational. If people didn't have these beliefs, this intolerance would not happen.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Everything going on right now with Israel, terrorists, all sorts of other problems are directly laid at the feet of religion.<< That's incorrect. Most of it is actually attributable to distortions of various religions by whackos with other agendas, not inherent to the religions themselves. They twist religions to fit their own desire for power, revenge, control, money, etc. Otherwise, most everyone in the world would be at each other's throats constantly. The fact is, that isn't what most religions instruct followers to do.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Faith is about trust" In what? What do you claim you trust? What some guy in a fancy robe told you as a child? People toss out this word as if it means something. It doesn't. It is just a code word for superstition and fear. I also like the intolerance label. People here seem to find certain things to be intolerant of, like female circumcision, but when it comes to their own set of empty gestures and meaningless activity and beliefs, then it's intolerance, and a bad thing. What is really bad is that people sit there as supposedly rational thinking adults and accept these fairy stories as if they were real. They aren't real, and you have nothing but superstition to suggest that it is.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I could be completely wrong. Show me a reason why I am wrong. I am not the least bit unequivocable about this. I've said all along, show me a reason to have faith in something that simply is not there, and that there is no reason to think something is there. Show me something there to have faith in. Show me some actual evidence." This is the anti-paragraph. To quote a famous philospher- "Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to." When you take something on faith, you're not buying into anything tangible. It just "is". Just like you're taking on faith that it "isn't".
