Originally Posted By cmpaley >>I thought you could only go to hell by rejecting god? Eating meat on Friday would only be rejecting the will of MEN, right?<< Actually, since Jesus gave the authority and bind and loose to the Apostles, specifically, to Peter ("whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven", Matt 16), the Church speaks with Christ's own authority.
Originally Posted By Mr X It would be a lot simpler (not to mention safer) for God to simply tell us directly what the rules are? Rather than leave it in the hands of flawed church officials, I mean. He gave them some leeway boy howdy!
Originally Posted By jonvn "No sir, this is the RELIGION conference." Yeah, but this is crazy, irrational gibberish. I mean, it's not even internally consistent. How people engage in these sorts of things is truly beyond me. I mean, I can understand a lot of things, how people might like there to be a god and such, but this layering on of ritual and rules and all that, is honestly and sincerely a total mystery to me. I don't get it. I just don't understand how anyone else can justify any of it, either. It simply makes no sense.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< the Church speaks with Christ's own authority. >>> Please address this in the context of the Church having been demonstratably wrong on so many things over the ages. I'll once again use my example of denying the heliocentric solar system. Presumably, Christ knows and has always known that the Earth revolves around the Sun. So how do we explain that people acting with His authority on Earth were excommunicating people for claiming what happened to be the truth, based on that authority? Or is it that the Church acts on His authority, but without His wisdom and knowledge? Regardless of the answers, I can't seem to come up with a situation that makes any sense. Does the Church have an answer to this? Maybe they do, or maybe it's something they'd just rather not talk about.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< That's not what my Sunday School teacher told me. But, that's okay cause she also told me my Mom was in hell (suicide...the ultimate sin cause you can't repent!). >>> Sorry to hear about your mom. That must have been just wonderful: at what must have been one of the worst situations in your life, which supposedly would be just the situation where a chuch might be most useful in its role of forming a supporting community, your church tells you that your Mom is definately spending an eternity in Hell and that you'll never see her again (unless that's where you end up as well).
Originally Posted By Mr X Yeah, Dave, your comments about your bro reminded me very much of my dealings with church "authorities" as a kid...I was definitely full of questions and they had ALL the "answers". Did you know that persons who commited suicide weren't allowed a church burial...well, until recently when they (er, God? I hope he filled out the heavenly paperwork on that one! maybe my Mom slid in on a technicality after all!), CHANGED THEIR MINDS on the matter. So much of this discussion stems from such rubbish. It just goes to prove that the church is seperate and ignorant of "god", if there really is one. after all, if this was all "divine truth", it wouldn't change would it? I have a couple of issues with the concept of the afterlife anyway. 1) Isn't spending eternity in awareness more akin to hell than heaven? Think about it...forever. So, you master all the arts, learn all the languages, explore the cosmos, chat with God about the meaning of everything, see all there is to see, hear all there is to hear, go back in time and experience everything there ever was... And, still, eternity lies before you. Boredom doesn't quite cover it. It truly sounds like hell. 2) To go back to my old pal Strudel (noone has mentioned her...I'm bummed! just kidding, it's just a DOG right?). The concept of "hell" is impossible if you believe in a heaven which is a place of eternal comfort and bliss. Think about it. Some deserve one, others deserve the other. But some of the DESERVING in heaven have loved ones in hell. When you die, and find out that your lover, mother, child, best friend, cherished mentor...is in hell, how can you POSSIBLY be at peace, blissful, and happy in heaven? The answer is you CAN'T. Another reason why these concepts are utterly stupid.
Originally Posted By SuperDry <<< Another reason why these concepts are utterly stupid. >>> As if I didn't know before now, your comment above only reinforces in my mind where you're headed for eternity. "May God Have Mercy On Your Soul" (not that it would make any difference)
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "Did you know that persons who commited suicide weren't allowed a church burial...well, until recently when they (er, God? I hope he filled out the heavenly paperwork on that one! maybe my Mom slid in on a technicality after all!), CHANGED THEIR MINDS on the matter." I'm afraid I did. In fact, there is a part of the vampire folk lore in Eastern Europe that Vampires take great strength from the graves of suicide victims. I heard you Dave, and I think there are many parallels in the rubbish the church spoke about our unfortunate family situations. But even more than the issues with the catholic church, I am scared about the fundamentalist christian movement in the US right now. I understand that many Americans are the decendents of Puritans, and also the remoteness of some of the communities in the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries have evolved into this neo fundamentalism. But I amso shocked at the thoughts of so many of our fellow countrymen today. I don't know if it's because we have all emigrated and it's changed our world view. But I cannot understand the lack of questioning I have witnessed. Also, the teachings of Islam make a lot of sense in many ways, and they even recognise the value of the teachings of Jesus. And yet, with the Afganistan/Iraq situation, the unchristian prejudice and hatred I have seen is unbelievable.
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Originally Posted By Mr X Ugh. I regret my post here. I shouldn't have used to derogatory term of "raghead". I have a lot of respect for the Muslim religion, and the faith in Allah in general (probably MORE than my own Catholic upbringing, to be perfecly blunt)... So, I'm sorry I wrote that, and I apologize to muslims for my slander. But I STILL would love an answer to that question. It's a truly genuine and important question. Does anyone have anything here? Anyone?
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder I'm not religious at all, I don't go to church, but I believe in God. In answer to post 31, if I remember from my Sunday School days, God and Jesus, despite "having all the answers", as it was put, allows mortal man to determine his own fate, make his mistakes, learn from his experiences, both on a large and small scale. As for the earth revolving around the sun, yeah, God knew about that, and let the churches and everyone else figure it out for themselves. And whaddaya know, they eventually did. I'd wager that people over time gained more of an appreciation for everything around them learning this way. Why read the entire book, plot twists and all, if you can just skip to the end? Why bother to read at all? I didn't find the AWESOME QUESTION all that AWESOME as I did ARROGRANT and DISRESPECTFUL to those who share beliefs other than the person who posed the question. It's a far too common "gotcha" tactic that grew tiresome decades and decades ago. A lot like "WHAT ABOUT THE DINOSAURS???" What about them? Pretty neat, aren't they? As I've said here a few times before. I go to the church of me. I believe, but I don't push that down anyone's throat. I don't think my way is the most correct over others, since religion is an extremely personal thing. Each person does what is best for them. If God is everything they say, he doesn't need me to show up somewhere each Sunday to prove it. I try and live by the Golden Rule. I don't always succeed, but I try. Live and let live. Broken down to its basics, that's really what it's all about. Coming on here with a smirk and remarking about worshipping "imaginary friends" or that religion is all a bunch of nonsense certainly doesn't make that person more superior in any way, far from it. Let others live their lives without the gratuitous comments. Show a little respect, if it's possible.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal As a Jewish woman, I can't speak to anything in the AWESOME question, because the Church doesn't speak for God as God is understood by Judaism. The Church has no authority over Jews, nor does any group of people. There is great discussion among Jews even within the denominations about the meaning of God, God's intentions, etc. The word Israel means "one who wrestles with God" and that is how reform Jews live their lives. We question, haggle, wrestle with God. It's how God intended it for us. Some people take their Rabbi's word or the Rabbinical conference's word for truth, but there is still room for interpretation and disagreement. Jews believe that we are not here to be saved at the end of our lives. Rather, life on earth is its own reward. No one on earth speaks with the authority of God. Not scholars, not cantors, not Rabbis....no one. But again, I can't speak to the actual question because the teachings and beliefs of the Church do not apply to me.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "If God is everything they say, he doesn't need me to show up somewhere each Sunday to prove it. I try and live by the Golden Rule. I don't always succeed, but I try. Live and let live." Very wise words, and similar to my view of the world. Church does have it's place for many in providing a sense of community and people to discuss views with.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<The Church has no authority over Jews, nor does any group of people. There is great discussion among Jews even within the denominations about the meaning of God, God's intentions, etc.>> A Jewish woman I used to work with invited me to a naming ceremony for her child that was held during a Shabbat service. I was very surprised by how different the service felt from any Christian service I had attended. First of all the Rabbi was a woman, which I thought was great but also really surprised me. The service also seemed to me much more informal than either Catholic mass or Protestant services. The Rabbi did not come across as someone who was going to tell everyone how they should live, but more as a leader of the group gathered that evening. I did not get the sense that the Rabbi was considered to be any closer to God than anyone else at that service. Overall I found it to be a very interesting and pleasant (though long ) service. I know very little about the Jewish religion. If somehow anything I’ve said here is offensive please know that it was not intended that way.
Originally Posted By DlandJB I am scared about the fundamentalist christian movement in the US right now.>>> Don't be. Although more people are joining evangelical churches, that does not automatically make them fundamentalist extremists. The extremists are still the fringe. They seem like a threat becaues the media gives them more airtime, but they are not any more powerful than they have ever been. What is changing is that more moderate people are getting involved in the evangelical movement. They are more interested in service and caring for others than for legalism. They want to take back the church from those that want to only promote the "Thou Shalt Nots" and promote a purpose - how do we reflect Jesus in a world that needs help with extreme poverty, education, clean water and freedom from disease. There is an internal battle going on, and it isn't pretty but in the end it is the message of service that is appealing to people and not the fire breathers.
Originally Posted By imadisneygal I think your assessment of your experience at the naming ceremony is spot on, RoadTrip. It should be noted, however, that the ceremony you attended was either a reform or a conservative ceremony. Women are still not allowed to become Rabbis in orthodox Judaism and many of the customs regarding men and women are different. The Rabbi is definitely not considered any closer to God than anyone else. The Rabbi is not required for any ceremony - religious ceremonies can be conducted by anyone sufficiently trained to know the service or ceremony. And some Shabbat ceremonies can be VERY long. We take our kids to the Family Shabbat nights which tend to be shorter and more kid friendly.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>It would be a lot simpler (not to mention safer) for God to simply tell us directly what the rules are? Rather than leave it in the hands of flawed church officials, I mean. He gave them some leeway boy howdy!<< Sure He did. But let's be clear on what is actuall going on. First, the Church only has infallible authority on matters pertaining to faith and morals. Those are things that can never, ever change. Examples of this are doctrines such as the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Blessed Trinity, the deity of Christ and morals such as murder always being sinful, the church's teachings on human sexuality and marriage (which are far, far more involved than people realize). On the other hand, the Church is not the arbiter of scientific fact. The whole Galileo affair was not what has been thrown up by anit-Catholics. After all, Copernicus, who came before Galileo was a heliocentrist and had no problems with the Church. Today, the Church even teaches that evolution is indeed possible (we are only required to believe that God did create everything and that He creates a human soul in every person born). As to discipline, Catholics are obliged to obey what the Church requires today. For example, in the 1940's, the Eucharistic Fast was from the previous midnight until one received holy communion and excluded nothing (no food, no water). In the 1950's or 60's, that was changed to three hours before reception. Today, it is only one hour from reception and water and medicines (where necessary) are allowed. Also, in 1970, the Mass underwent drastic changes (latin to vernacular, ad orientum (priest and people face the East) to versus populum (priest facing the people), the Lectionary (readings) was reformed and expanded, the Liturgical Calendar underwent major changes. All these fall under the rubric of DISCIPLINE. Not one DOCTRINE has changed. Don't confuse the two. Of course, some have argued that the changes in discipline have resulted in laxity in doctrinal belief and teaching. With some of the things that go on in churches today, sometimes I wonder if that's true. Take the discipline of reception of communion on the tongue (where the priest places the host on the communicant's tongue) to "communion in the hand" (where the priest or Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion) places the host in the communicant's hand. Previously, people had a great reverence for Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Today, people receive in the hand and Father, just today, mentioned how, in my very conservative and revererent parish, FOUR consecrated hosts were found over the past three months. Considering Catholic teaching that the consecrated host is God, that's a major problem. Father asked everyone to please receive on the tongue (but he can't require it right now.
