Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>That makes it the universal religion of humanity, then, doesn't it.<< Depends upon how you define the word 'religion' I guess. It would take a very, very loose interpretation of the word for that to be the case.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Most of it is actually attributable to distortions of various religions by whackos with other agendas" Distortions to you. Real religion to them. The Catholics were not very happy with the Protestant Reformation. If you are a Christian, and not a Catholic, according to them, you are ascribing to a distortion of the true church. Wouldn't that be right? Seems like it to me. "most everyone in the world would be at each other's throats constantly." Well, they are.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Faith is believing in something when common sense tells you not to." So what this quote says is that anyone having "faith" lacks common sense. This is true. But it's not a good thing.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "...when it comes to their own set of empty gestures and meaningless activity and beliefs..." You can keep calling it names and insulting people over it, and yes you are, but that doesn't change anything. I've had too much experience with actual supernatural events to state unequivocally there is no life after death, that there is no God. There is something else, somewhere, that we don't know a thing about. Of that I'm convinced.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>They aren't real<< Again, that's what you believe. You can't prove that statement to be correct simply by dismissing them with names like 'fairy stories' and the like.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "So what this quote says is that anyone having "faith" lacks common sense. This is true." So what?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Well, they are.<< No, they aren't. Most people go about their business, by and large, and most of the world isn't at war. There are people who will foist their beliefs on people, and this is where conflict arises, when you have two or more belief systems that contradict each other. But if what you say is true, that religion itself is what cause people to attack one another, well, it simply isn't the case. Otherwise, with all the religions in practice around the world, there would be constant, never-ending turmoil until one group dominated completely.
Originally Posted By jonvn "I've had too much experience with actual supernatural events" Or things that are very easily explained reasonably that you perceive as supernatural events. There was a study done (I think tihs was shown on a TV show) where they took some individuals to a home and told them murders took place there. And that it was particularly gruesome, and that people have had supernatural experiences there. Many of the people in the group started feeling things, and hearing things and seeing things. Because they were told they would, so they did. The truth was that the building was a movie set, nothing bad ever happened there, and the whole thing was a hoax. People believe what they are told to believe. People experience what they want to experience. It does not make it real. "You can keep calling it names" It is precisely what I said it is.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>So what this quote says is that anyone having "faith" lacks common sense.<< Common sense is defined by what is known at a particular time and place. Common sense two hundred years ago would be that it would be impossible for mmen to fly, and certainley impossible in heavy aircraft. And there would be hard science + common sense at the time that would make that a very reasonable conclusion. But it would be wrong.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>People believe what they are told to believe. People experience what they want to experience. It does not make it real.<< So you believe there is no God because someone told you to believe that. That doesn't make it real.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Again, that's what you believe. " Again, show me that they are. Show me that they are, and I will believe that they are. "You can't prove that statement to be correct simply by dismissing them with " Provide evidence. Until then, they are fairy stories. People used to believe fairies really existed. Elves, all sorts of things. That doesn't mean they existed either. "Most people go about their business, by and large, and most of the world isn't at war" The world's history is replete with wars, masked over by religion. War after war after war. Right now we are suffering the problems of it. But this happens over and over again all over the world. We don't constantly attack everyone all the time, but we do it very often, and continuously. From Yugoslavia, to Paksitan, to Northern Ireland. To suggest otherwise is to ignore the history of our world. "But if what you say is true, that religion itself is what cause people to attack one another, well, it simply isn't the case." It is a main cause. There are other reasons, too, of course.
Originally Posted By jonvn "So you believe there is no God because someone told you to believe that." No. I don't have any indication one exists. Therefore, I see no reason to believe one. If a reason became evident, I would. It's not because someone told me this, it's because there is simply no reason to think otherwise. "Common sense is defined by what is known at a particular time and place." Common sense is the thing that tells you whether or not something is reasonable or not. that if it makes logical sense, it is possibly true, but if not, it likely isn't. What people thought 200 years ago about people flying was true due to the technology of the time. However, that does not mean that people were not thinking about it, for as I said, daVinci had even created a design for a glider. People had been working on the problem for a while. People knew that it was not impossible, they just didn't know how to do it. Just becuase you don't know how to do something, does not mean it is impossible. It just means you don't know how to do it. If you come across something that indicates you can't, such as faster than light travel, you then try and see if that theory holds up over time. And if something does come along that changes that idea, you ditch it and go with a new one.
Originally Posted By LPFan22 jonvn, you ask others to prove that God exists but can you prove God doesn't exist? Prove the reason for your lack of faith to me. Impossible. I can't show you my heart, my mind, my soul. But that's where proof of my faith is. Believing isn't always seeing.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>that if it makes logical sense, it is possibly true, but if not, it likely isn't. << 'Likely' and 'possibly' are the qualifiers that give faith all the room it needs.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Or things that are very easily explained reasonably that you perceive as supernatural events." Nope, sorry. I've recounted these things in other threads at other times, but briefly- Once, setting up cameras for a surveillance, I secured a camera in a ceiling overlooking someone's work area. Upon looking at the picture on a monitor, the picture was now upside down, and then began twirling on its own. No one was in the ceiling to move the camera. I've seen empty rolling racks, usually used for hanging clothes, roll back on forth across a loading dock at 2:00 a.m. on their own. When I told them to stop, they did. When I turned my back, they began to roll again. I've seen light switches move between the on and off position on their own without the lights being affected. I've been to an empty cabinet looking for a certain tool, only to reopen the cabinet a few minutes later and find the tool sitting in the center of the cabinet. I've seen the shadow of a person who wasn't there walking up the stairs of my mother's house, replete with the creaking of the stairs and the noise of kneee joints cracking, just like my step-father, who had died over 20 years previously. There's more, but now I'm boring myself. I've experienced these things. I know what I saw.
Originally Posted By jonvn You don't prove a negative. You want to assert something exists? Show a reason that it does. Until you show a reason, there is no way to believe in it. What you personally believe is not a reason. As I said, people will believe absolutely anything. I don't have to "prove" my lack of faith. I simply don't have faith in something for which there is no evidence of. If you want me to prove there is no god, I can't. that does not, however mean he does exist. But you don't believe something exists until you are able to show that he does.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan There are plenty of things we cannot prove. We cannot prove we love someone. We can only tell them and act in certain ways that suggest it is true. Sometimes when we love someone, we act in ways that dont offer evidence that we love them. The object of our affection at that point chooses to accept that we love them, or they don't. That's an act of faith. Setting your alarm at night in trusting that the sun won't get sucked into a black hole or something, and it will indeed rise the next day. Planning for retirement assumes you will be around to need that money. otherwise, why not spend it all now, as there is no proof you'll be here in 30 years? All kinds of things humans do are based on faith of all kinds.
Originally Posted By jonvn "'Likely' and 'possibly' are the qualifiers that give faith all the room it needs." Or, more accurately, the shelter from reason it needs. Common sense can be wrong, but common sense also dictates when it is shown to be wrong, common sense changes. Let's say that what you said is correct. That at one time common sense dictated man could not fly. Well, things change. now common sense indicates that man can fly. What changed? Information and evidence. When you present information and evidence that shows that common sense is not correct, then common sense changes.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<What you personally believe is not a reason.>> Right back at ya.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>What changed? Information and evidence.<< Yes, but what also happened was that people through the years had faith in a concept, an idea. They worked towards making that concept a reality -- that man could fly. Along the way, many of them plunged off cliffs to test various means of flight. That's a literal leap of faith, putting something to the test. In teh same way, people go through their lives being considerate of others and donating to the poor, not always in hopes of an ultimate reward, but rather, because in the belief it pleases God. It would be just as reasonable of them to take a very selfish point of view and say there is no reason to give, no reason to care about anything. They have faith that there is more to life than what we see on the surface. Remember that there are indeed GOOD things that are based in religious principles. Look at the work of St. Jude's Childrens Hospitals, for but one example. Look at the work of the Salvation Army and others. You'll likely see it as just another tool of conversion, but I challenge you to look at it from a fresh perspective for a change -- that perhaps faith can empower people to do good. That will create some conflict for you based on what you said here, but if you're good to your word, you will allow that there is much more to faith than the way you have belittled and portrayed it in this thread, because there's the facts and evidence you asked for.
