Originally Posted By jonvn "There are plenty of things we cannot prove." As I said, these are beliefs. People believe anything. Being in love with someone is not proof of an external entitity, or any other such thing, but an internalized feeling. "There's more, but now I'm boring myself. I've experienced these things. I know what I saw. " I'm sure you think you know what you saw. People have also claimed to have been kidnapped by UFOs, and they know that as well. Or they've seen Elvis at the local Applebees. One perosn I know swears up and down that he saw Osama Bin Laden at Disneyland right after 9/11. I am not making that up, either. He used to post here. What you perceive and what really has happened are not always the exact same thing. And, frankly, I'm rather distrustful of stories such as yours as they come dime a dozen, and there is never a stitch of documentation to back up any of them. "Right back at ya." No, it's not right back at me. You claimed belief in something. Fine. I said I would believe too, given evidence. You are believing in something with no evidence, based on what amounts to an ornate Parker Brother's Ouija Board game. That is not proof of existence of anything. Simply show some. That's what I ask. I am perfectly 100% willing to be convinced otherwise. I don't need to see people rise from the dead, I don't need to see Jesus appear 1000 feet in the sky hurling flaming rocks at his enemies, I just need to see anything that gives a reason for the nonsense that is religion. There isn't any. And if there is no evidence, there is nothing to accept belief in.
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<You claimed belief in something. Fine. I said I would believe too, given evidence. You are believing in something with no evidence, based on what amounts to an ornate Parker Brother's Ouija Board game. That is not proof of existence of anything. >> I didn't claim anything about my beliefs other than JB isn't harming anyone. You don't know what I believe.
Originally Posted By jonvn I conflated you with a different person. The thing is my belief is still "not right back at me." My belief is you don't believe something is true until it can be shown to be true, or not true. And even then, that is subject to change. You don't just think something is true because you think it is true. I think I look like Tom Cruise. That doesn't make it true.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "Until you show a reason, there is no way to believe in it." For you maybe, not for others. You're forcing your belief system on others if you insist on telling them they're wrong. To each his own. Live and let live. What's it to ya?
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka Well you obviously haven't felt the Holy Spirit moving within you and/or your life. You can't tell people that their own experiences and beliefs are wrong simply because you do not understand them. You seem to think you are much smarter than everyone else because you "get it". Clearly you don't get it and you won't be swayed by what people say. So why not just let people who do get it have their conversation instead of feeling the need to continually announce how stupid everyone is for having different beliefs than you? For someone so sure that God doesn't exist, why the insecure need to keep telling other people how wrong they are? Why not just agree to disagree and let people have their discussion?
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>You're forcing your belief system on others<< Ironical, ain't it? Jonvn wants me to believe there is no God because he tells me so. He can't prove it, but I should have faith in that idea just because. But he thinks people are insane if they believe what they are told.
Originally Posted By jonvn "people go through their lives being considerate of others and donating to the poor, not always in hopes of an ultimate reward, but rather, because in the belief it pleases God." And I happen to think that is disgusting. People should do those things not because it pleases god, but because it is the right thing to do. Maybe if we didn't do things because we thought it pleased god, or we got some reward because for one week out of the year at xmas we're nice to bums, things would be better. "Remember that there are indeed GOOD things that are based in religious principles." But, you see, you don't need irrational beliefs to do good things. You do good things because they are good things. Would people still do good things if they weren't afraid of going to hell? I don't know, but I do know that a lot of the evils that we have inflicted upon ourselves in the world in the name of religion would never have happened either. You see, I donate to charity. I help out other people. I do things that are right. I don't need faith to tell me to do that, and I don't suspect that other people who do such things need it either. And yes, I'm going to belittle this sort of thing. What I've read here, and have studied elsewhere about various religions shows me they deserve it. Reading about purgatory on here and how you have to do this or do that was like reading the rules to some elaborate board game. It's truly just nonsense.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Jonvn wants me to believe there is no God because he tells me so." No. I don't want you to believe anything. You believe what you want. I'll just give you my opinion on it. "Well you obviously haven't felt the Holy Spirit moving" Of course I haven't. There isn't one. I'm sure you think you felt it, though. People can convince themselves of anything. "Why not just agree to disagree and let people have their discussion?" This is our discussion. I have to go euthanize a dog now. You can all have the last words.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "And yes, I'm going to belittle this sort of thing. What I've read here, and have studied elsewhere about various religions shows me they deserve it." What makes you think anybody gives a crap what you think they deserve? Why not let them be happy with what they believe in?
Originally Posted By DlandJB By believing in irrational unsubstantiated beliefs, based on a load of gibberish and false concepts, you've succumbed to the base instinct of primitive man, huddled together for warmth. >>>>>>>> And you appear to be an angry man with a chip on his shoulder big enough for the whole world. I'd rather chose happiness over anger, love over bitterness and faith over dispair.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Given that, if you can provide a shred of a real reason as to any of these beliefs, then you'd have something. But none of them have that. Because they are false systems of belief based on primitive superstition>>> Far better minds than mine (C.S. Lewis, Thomas Aquinas to name two) are better equipt to handle the reason you seek. I fear that anything I should offer would be mocked and dismissed anyway, so I'll save my time for more rewarding pursuits.
Originally Posted By DlandJB So what this quote says is that anyone having "faith" lacks common sense. This is true. But it's not a good thing. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let's talk about love for a minute. If you have people in your life that you love, or love you...how do you know that you do? How do you know that love is real? What proof do you have? I can't really prove love, except through actions, but that doesn't really prove it exists, does it? How do you prove love exists? It isn't a trick question -- I'm just curious about how you approach other intangibles.
Originally Posted By SingleParkPassholder "I have to go euthanize a dog now." Well, you'll see the dog on the Rainbow Bridge.
Originally Posted By jonvn WEll, I don't get to go til 1. SO I'm here for a bit more. "What makes you think anybody gives a crap what you think they deserve? " This is not my concern. This is a discussion board. Not the SPP (or whatever you call yourself now) board to talk about things the way you want to discuss them. "you appear to be an angry man with a chip on his shoulder " I am neither angry nor do I have a chip on my shoulder. I do, however, have opinions on things, and you have heard some of them here. That you wish to believe in nonsense is not my problem. But it most certainly is nonsense. "Far better minds than mine" Fine. They've not done it either. "I fear that anything I should offer would be mocked and dismissed anyway" Possibly. It depends on what you have to say. I can't think of anything you likely would say, though, that would make much of a difference. If you have faith in something that you have no reason to, you are acting in an unreasonable manner. In the process, you are trying defend unreasonable behavior. That is basically an impossible task. I am asking for reason where there is none.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>People should do those things not because it pleases god, but because it is the right thing to do.<< Who says so? You? It's not really up to me, or you, to question one's motivation for doing good. But it causes your fervent faith in nothingness some real discomfort when it is pointed out that faith can inspire people to do good. So, you ignore it or belittle it and play up the negative.
Originally Posted By jonvn I'll have to answer more posts later. I have a rotten piece of crap I have to go do now.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Far better minds than mine" Fine. They've not done it either. >>>>>>>>>>> Have you read them?
