Originally Posted By melekalikimaka <<Nothing can destroy the Church because it is a divinely protected insitution>> Yeah, which is why some Catholics (priests especially) think they can do whatever they want.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><<the Exsultet (Easter Proclamation made at every Easter Vigil Mass),>> This is kind of what I meant by leaving the language behind that isn't accessible to everyone. It makes Catholicism look almost cult-like - special language required. (and I don't think it is a cult, but I think you have a prideful attitude sometimes about flaunting what you know).<< I'm sorry you think that of me. Do you know the reason the Catholic Church has used Latin for so long? Aside from the Pope, the one unifying factor in Catholicism was the Latin Mass. Even non-Catholics call certain prayers by the original Greek or Latin names. Lutherans sing the Kyrie, the Gloria in Excelsis, the Gloria Patri, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei in their services and they're calls such. Calling an ancient prayer by the old name is common practice among many people. <<Seriously, though, because of that, we have this inborn tendency to not only fear God but avoid Him. He loves us still and provides means for us to come to Him.>> Here I totally disagree with you. I think our inborn tendency is to search for God...to try and fill an empty void we perceive in our lives when we don't put God in it. Because of sin, we are separated from God, but are you suggesting we feel better when we sin? Most people would disagree. Where does conscience come from? Certainly there are people that are so far away from God that they don't give a hoot if they are hurting others or themselves, but I don't think that is true for most...I don't think we are wired like that.<< Perhaps you might want to reread Romans 1-3 on original sin. Yes, we do need God and search after Him but at the same time, part of us doesn't want Him because we know that we are lacking. I'm talking about original sin. That desire to search for God is always grace-inspired. Obviously, not everyone responds favorably to that grace and they are the ones who end up with a very unhappy eterinity. Grace is not irresistable and we do have the ability to choose or reject God.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >><<Nothing can destroy the Church because it is a divinely protected insitution>> Yeah, which is why some Catholics (priests especially) think they can do whatever they want.<< And they're wrong. God is not mocked. A priest who disregards his moral responsibility and harms others will be called to account. A Catholic who thinks that he can just commit a mortal sin and then just go to confession is presuming against God's mercy and may never make it to that confession and wind up in hell. God doesn't take kindly to those who dare to presume that they are special and won't be called to account.
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>She would and it's within her rights to do so as the agency of a sovereign country<<< I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't the rapes have to occur within Vatican city for that to apply? You're not telling me that all priests suddenly become immune to the laws of the country they reside in when they sign up, are you? This actually IS interesting though. You mentioned something about excommunication, but that the pope could reverse it. Is that one of his powers (like presidential pardons or something?)? Is the pope the supreme ruler of Vatican city? If so, does he have king-like powers? I'm asking because I really have no idea what the actual political structure of Vatican city is (nor anything about the laws, court system, or anything else for that matter).
Originally Posted By Mr X >>>My purpose would be to prevent scandal<<< You're confused here. The scandal has already occured in this case. All you would be doing would be covering it up. As they did.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Do you know the reason the Catholic Church has used Latin for so long? Aside from the Pope, the one unifying factor in Catholicism was the Latin Mass.>>> It was true that at one time all Mass was in Latin, so I guess you could say there was some comfort in that -- you could go to any Catholic Church in the world and still not understand what was being said...at least for most people. It separated the average worshiper from the clergy and the learned. You were at the mercy of the clergy because you wouldn't know much of what was going on. I'm old enough to remember when the Latin Mass was being phased out. Most Catholics I observed as a child spent the majority of Mass time saying the rosary to themselves. The Vatican II changes turned the priest around to face the laity and brought the language home so that everyone could really participate -- not just observe. I distrust the agenda of the resurgence of the Latin Mass.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip To a certain extent I don't think cmpaley deserves the grief he is getting here. He’s just telling everyone what the rules of the club are. He's not saying everyone needs to join the club. Personally, I'm one of the many who join the club because we like the atmosphere and fellowship, even if we think some of the rules are a bit strange. It's like being a Democrat who does not believe in abortion (like me). We don't agree with all the rules, but we generally like the folks there. That's good enough for me. If I ever get in deep doo-doo up there at the pearly gates, I know I can just say I knew cmp and they'll let me in!
Originally Posted By DlandJB Perhaps you might want to reread Romans 1-3 on original sin.>>> Hmmm..Romans...doesn't that book say something about being justified by faith alone? Not exactly a Catholic tenet. Not to pick on you, but the RCC isn't so hot on using the Bible to justify its actions/tenents as much as by tradition...so there is much more in the Bible that talks about our being saved by faith alone. <<That desire to search for God is always grace-inspired. Obviously, not everyone responds favorably to that grace and they are the ones who end up with a very unhappy eterinity. Grace is not irresistable and we do have the ability to choose or reject God>> We have been given the gift of free will. A tremendous gift -- perhaps the greatest gift. Grace is also a gift from God. Although within the Catholic Church there is grace within the sacraments, it isn't exclusive to them. God's grace is a gift that He may choose to share at any time. Perhaps I think God is more generous with grace than you think He is.
Originally Posted By TALL Disney Guy <It's like being a Democrat who does not believe in abortion (like me).> Hey now, that kinda stuff is for WE, not here. Oh wait... Nevermind. ;-)
Originally Posted By DlandJB Personally, I'm one of the many who join the club because we like the atmosphere and fellowship, even if we think some of the rules are a bit strange.>> I don't mean to pick on him, really. But I do think he gets very sanctimonious about his Church, and while I understand he has the zeal of a newbie, it is an odd approach to an old Catholic like me (or like I was). In the end I left because I respect the right of the RCC to set its rules. I became aware that I didn't want to pretend to be something I really wasn't anymore just because I was raised in the Church. I studied the religion for many years. I saved my faith by leaving the RCC.
Originally Posted By Liberty Belle >>Personally, I'm one of the many who join the club because we like the atmosphere and fellowship, even if we think some of the rules are a bit strange.<< True, but I said something very similar in my first post - that I believe I'm a faithful Catholic, even though I might not follow all the rules. Cmpaley responded in a way which I didn't particularly like (by going on about how I'm "claiming" to be a Catholic while committing mortal sin, how maybe eternal life with God isn't actually what I want), and that's why I'm giving him grief. I totally agree with you - I don't have a problem with anyone trying to explain the rules, but I don't think that's what he's doing, I do feel like he's preaching. And I'm already in the club, probably been there longer than him, and I don't really want to be preached to. Just explaining my point of view
Originally Posted By FaMulan As I have said before, there is none so zealous as the convert. Being a Catholic lapsed nearly 32 years, I too find him insulting to non-Catholics and to Catholics who have had a completely different experience in the church than he did. cmpaley, remember your Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. By your overly sanctimonious posts pretty much condemning non-Catholics and Catholics who were raised in the religion does give those people the prerogative to respond in kind. If you can't take criticism, do not criticize.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>satan's goal is just to get you to hell, not torment you once there.<< Sort of the reverse of a typical timeshare presentation.
Originally Posted By onlyme LOL!! But, seriously, folks...I just don't understand why something that began so simply(Jesus saying, "come unto me..."), is turned into something so complex and rules-oriented, that it becomes a total turn-off to most. Not to offend my athiestic friends, but Jesus came in such a humble manner, spoke in simple, humble language, loved to hang out with Sinners, and yet, some faiths disregard the teachings/actions of their Leader and totally confuse the matter by designing paths that you MUST take in order to be accepted by God. UGH! cmpaley, this is not some attack on you or what you believe. Just observations on religion, in general.
Originally Posted By jonvn It became this complex because it had to adapt to local religions in order to sublimate and assimilate them. Over time, things just grow and grow. Additionally, the Roman Catholic Church served to fill a power vaccuum after the fall of the western Roman Empire. It has spent the last 2000 or so years consolidating and strengthening its grip on its control of Europe. That control at this point is now rapidly ebbing away. Christianity in general in Europe is slowly going away, but support for Catholicism itself is just evaporating. It simply does not speak to a modern population, and in this day and age of communication and science, it comes across as simply what it is: a lot of empty ritual, meaningless rules and irrational concepts. But it basically is the last vestige of the Roman Empire. Kind of amazing, really.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Additionally, the Roman Catholic Church served to fill a power vaccuum after the fall of the western Roman Empire. It has spent the last 2000 or so years consolidating and strengthening its grip on its control of Europe. << And it would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids.... >>a lot of empty ritual, meaningless rules and irrational concepts<< Like the Atkins diet.
Originally Posted By jonvn "Like the Atkins diet." It does work...as long as you don't ever go off it. Ever. For one meal. Then you are hooked back on carbs.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>>She would and it's within her rights to do so as the agency of a sovereign country<<< I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't the rapes have to occur within Vatican city for that to apply? You're not telling me that all priests suddenly become immune to the laws of the country they reside in when they sign up, are you?<< No. >>This actually IS interesting though. You mentioned something about excommunication, but that the pope could reverse it. Is that one of his powers (like presidential pardons or something?)?<< No, it's nothing like that. Excommunication is a means of Church discipline intended to bring the person excommunicated back into the Church. Many excommunications can be lifted by the local Bishop, or his designee, but some can only be lifted by the Pope. A person who is excommunicated is not automatically condemned to hell as s/he may repent and be reconciled to the Church...which is the point of excommunication. >>Is the pope the supreme ruler of Vatican city? If so, does he have king-like powers? I'm asking because I really have no idea what the actual political structure of Vatican city is (nor anything about the laws, court system, or anything else for that matter).<< The pope is indeed the Supreme Ruler of Vatican City. Before that, he was the Ruler of the Papal States. The Pope's primary role is that of Bishop of Rome and Pastor of the Universal Church but he also acts as the head of the government of Vatican City.
Originally Posted By DlandJB Christianity in general in Europe is slowly going away, but support for Catholicism itself is just evaporating.>> Not true in Africa, where Catholicism has grown tremendously, and with an especially fundamentalist furvor. JP2 appointed quite a number of cardinals from Africa during his lifetime. It is not inconceivable that the Catholic Church would name an African Pope in our lifetime. It will be interesting to see.
Originally Posted By cmpaley >>Perhaps you might want to reread Romans 1-3 on original sin.>>> Hmmm..Romans...doesn't that book say something about being justified by faith alone? Not exactly a Catholic tenet. << Nope, not at all. It says that we are justified by faith for good works, not by faith alone. Luther *added* the word "alone" in his translation but it doesn't appear anywhere in the original Greek. >>I don't mean to pick on him, really. But I do think he gets very sanctimonious about his Church, and while I understand he has the zeal of a newbie, it is an odd approach to an old Catholic like me (or like I was). << So now I'm santcimonious. By calling me that, it is being said that I am faking my faith and belief or that I am hypocritical in that belief. I really appreciate that. Really. Now please back it up or apologize.
