Originally Posted By Mr X ***"The percent of "leading" scientists who hold religious beliefs has been declining from around 30% in 1914 to less than 10% in 1998."*** Which illustrates very powerfully the intent behind big religion focusing and attacking science and education as much as they do. A fully educated population would be the death of them as the moral power brokers of the planet.
Originally Posted By CuriouserConstance Yeah tell me about it, then they'd have to get a job and work for their money like the rest of us.
Originally Posted By pecos bill Considering the gravity of the current round of scandals, an educated populace would be catastrophic to the Catholic church. These people seem incapable or unwilling to rationalize the condemning information that is basically being spoon fed to them. "As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect." -Ralph Waldo Emerson
Originally Posted By wahooskipper I'm Catholic...and educated. I don't know about you but I don't give up on my faith just because of the leadership anymore than I give up on my country just because of the leadership.
Originally Posted By Mr X But there's a HUGE difference, don't you think? Your country is one thing, but "your faith" has to do with God and what he thinks of you and your actions and beliefs no? If your particular faith is corrupt and evil to the core, don't you worry that God might be pissed off with you for staying with that rather than switching to a similar faith that isn't so provably evil and corrupt? I mean, seriously. Think about it. You say you WON'T "give up your faith", but what does that mean exactly? You'll stick with the evil doers despite what God would say about it? Country and Religion are completely different things, if you actually sit back and think about it. I hope your God is okay with your blind acceptance of evil deeds on a grand scale...thats all I can say about that. I have a feeling He wouldn't be too happy with it, but if you think he's cool with it AND with your blind acceptance of it, then I'd just say good luck with that. I would be nervous if I were you.
Originally Posted By Mr X <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/03/15/church.abuse/index.html" target="_blank">http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WO...dex.html</a> I must say, this is something that should give great pause to *any* Catholic, but much like staunch partisan types, it will likely roll off their backs just like Wahoo and despite the trail of victims left behind. I couldn't live with myself believing that these people were still "moral leaders", but that's just me, I guess.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper My faith (or religion)is not corrupt or evil to the core. There have been leaders of my faith over the centuries who have been evil or corrupt. Nothing rolls off my back. During the American priest sex scandal I cried with my priest. The scrutiny that was passed on to him because of the sins of others was just about too much for him to take. I know country and religion are different but it is a fair analogy. (Though, admittedly, I chose to be Catholic - I converted - and I didn't choose to be American.) I don't think "my" God is okay with it and those who have sinned will be judged. But, considering you are not a believer it is kind of silly to try to explain myself because you aren't capable of understanding it. You can pooh-pooh religion and faith all you want. You can point out hypocrisy, evil doing, etc. But, I can point to just as many examples of my religion doing right by the World. CNN, FOX and others have forgotten about Haiti (well...to be fair, Anderson Cooper is trying to keep it in the public eye.) But, guess who has not? The Catholic Church and many other religions. They were working in Haiti before Sean Penn and they will be working there long after Penn is gone. You've got the Jews who are rightly bringing attention to Darfur. There are countless examples.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***My faith (or religion)is not corrupt or evil to the core.*** Sincerest apologies from me for insinuating something there, I in no way ever intended to impugn YOUR particular faith. I should have said "your denomination" or something like that. Sorry. But if you ARE talking about the Catholic religion in general, it certainly IS corrupt, and dirty and gross and everything else. I am really disgusted at this point, but it's interesting that you say this later... ***But, considering you are not a believer it is kind of silly to try to explain myself because you aren't capable of understanding it.*** Though I *am* a Catholic by birth and by family and by tradition, and I was heavily indoctrinated as a youth including many years in Catholic school. If by "non-believer" you mean I can't understand, then I guess I'll have to take the mea-culpa on this one. I can't understand how anyone could stay involved in a religion that rapes thousands upon thousands of kids over decades (centuries?) and the leadership is all too happy to cover it up (even threaten the victims with excommunication if they dare to speak up) all the way up to the current pope (and the last one). As a "non-believer", I can still imagine what it might feel like to die and go to heaven and have to explain to God why I stuck around and supported such a horror show. I suppose you imagine God would pat you on the back for being so faithful despite all the rapes and the evil doing? Somehow I doubt it, but obviously you know much better cause you're "a believer". Yeah, good luck with that. Personally, I have a problem with horrible crimes. I don't believe in any particular "god", but if I did I would imagine he hates horrible crimes too, particularly on a grand scale such as this.
Originally Posted By Mr X To put it succinctly, if you acknowledge all the horrible crimes that group has committed and still insist on remaining a member "no matter what", then you are culpable. You are a willing participant in those crimes insomuch as you endorse and support them through your membership. And by continuing your membership (along with millions of others) you are ENABLING them in order that they might continue committing horrible crimes. Hope you're okay with that.
Originally Posted By Mr X o put it succinctly, if you acknowledge all the horrible crimes that group has committed and still insist on remaining a member "no matter what", then you are culpable. You are a willing participant in those crimes insomuch as you endorse and support them through your membership. And by continuing your membership (along with millions of others) you are ENABLING them in order that they might continue committing horrible crimes. Hope you're okay with that.
Originally Posted By wahooskipper God will judge me by the life I've led...not the life that other's in my denomination have led. I'm not without sin but I suspect my chances of entering heaven are decent. I pay taxes yet my taxes go to many, many things that I don't believe in. But, they go toward things I do believe in. So, I have to keep in mind the greater good. Maybe some of my money has gone right to the Vatican. But, a lot of my money has gone to humanitarian aid, New Orleans relief, aid to abused women, aid to the poor, feeding the hungry in my own community, etc. Would it be easier if it were black and white? Well, I suppose so.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I pay taxes yet my taxes go to many, many things that I don't believe in. But, they go toward things I do believe in. So, I have to keep in mind the greater good.*** What an amazing non-sequitur. It doesn't matter what your opinion is regarding where your taxes go, you have to pay them like it or not (or go to jail). That in no way shape or form has anything to do with your choice of religious denomination and what crimes they might be involved with. How bizarre of you to come up with these strange, nonsensical justifications. ***Maybe some of my money has gone right to the Vatican. But, a lot of my money has gone to humanitarian aid, New Orleans relief, aid to abused women, aid to the poor, feeding the hungry in my own community, etc.*** You have no way of knowing exactly where that money has gone, but assuredly some of it has contributed to protecting pedophiles and fighting against equal rights. Perhaps next time you could chose a more transparent and honest and less corrupt institution and thus keep your contributions going towards better things than that. ***Would it be easier if it were black and white? Well, I suppose so.*** That's entirely up to you, bro. Seems as though you'd rather close your eyes entirely and simply *hope* that your money and your support go percentage wise towards the white side and less to the black. You can continue to roll the bones, or you can take a stand. It's entirely up to you.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>You say you WON'T "give up your faith", but what does that mean exactly? You'll stick with the evil doers despite what God would say about it?<< I think what he means is he will keep his trust in Jesus, even if the his Bishop or even the Pope are criminals.
Originally Posted By barboy ///it doesn't matter what your opinion is regarding where your taxes go, you have to pay them like it or not (or go to jail)./// no, not exactly Willfully not paying income taxes (you were talking about income taxes, right?) doesn't necessarily land one in jail---- that's not how it works. Now filing a fraudulent tax return or disobeying a court could land one in jail. But not paying when one owes---by not sending a check to state and/or US tax authorities--- is likely not a crime.
Originally Posted By barboy /// is likely not a crime./// Please disregard 'likely' above. Not paying--that is not sending funds to the public creatures-- in and of itself is not a crime. The crime (and ultimately jail time) stems from evading taxes, committing fraud or disobeying a judge.
Originally Posted By barboy Forget "crime", actually disobeying a court can be a ticket to some nice jail time.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I think what he means is he will keep his trust in Jesus, even if the his Bishop or even the Pope are criminals.*** What does that have to do with anything. If his Bishop or even the Pope are criminals, it's not as though there aren't like a million other Jesus churches out there to choose from. And since WWJD is so popular, how would it apply here? Would Jesus really be happy with his followers remaining in a corrupt church that's harming children, rather than simply move to another one with the same message but less evildoing. Just sayin.
Originally Posted By barboy ///rather than simply move to another one with the same message but less evildoing./// But there is no direct competitor to the Catholic Church. What organization mirrors that Catholic faith? I mean if you have had enough of Coke you can always switch to Pepsi, when you get tired of Toyota go buy a Nissan or if you are disillusioned with democrats you can join the republicans but what can a Catholic do?
Originally Posted By wahooskipper Although all Christians believe in Jesus Christ as our savior there are some prettty significant differences between Catholics and Protestants. X makes it sound like I can just stop buying Toyota's and start buying Honda's but it isn't quite that simple.
