Originally Posted By LOVE-DCA u guys post such long paragraphs how is one suppose to follow? geez!! lol what up hans
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt You guys? That's WD doing that, not me. I'm LOVE-DCA. WD, I'm done talking about this. I feel like we're going in circles. Carry on my friend.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney That's fine Hans. Me too! I havent had a work out like that here in months lol.
Originally Posted By LOVE-DCA omg.....well u two need to just grab a bottle of wine an site by the fire and discuss disney... lol lol
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>...not to mention the Fab 5 strolling around for meet & greets?<< Well, that one made me laugh, anyway. I remember very clearly the various presentations made in the year or so before DCA opened, in which it was made clear that all that tired, crummy "Disney" stuff wouldn't be sullying the oh-so-hip 'n trendy DCA. Now, they would let the core team "vacation" in the new wonderland. And for the first few months, that's all the public got-- Mickey, Minnie and friends in vacation clothes, enjoying their brief "visits." And we all know how well that worked out. >>Disney/MGM Studio was not a "lavishly detailed" park in comparison to DCA.<< Again, this is all opinion, but having visited each park right after opening, I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly believe such a thing. >>Look only across the way at DL. The alterations and additions there from 1955 to 1967 were even more dramatic than DCA's.<< I cannot believe I'm hearing all this again. To be succinct, Disneyland expanded and grew in response to overwhelming public demand. DCA has been added to and remodeled in an effort to create public demand. When it comes to DCA, I am neither a basher, gusher, or mixed-bagger. I'm just someone who recognizes the reality of what is happening in front of my own eyes.
Originally Posted By DlandDug Oh... and how about that new exhibit in the Blue Sky Cellar? Pretty nifty stuff, eh?
Originally Posted By leemac <<They do seem to be pouring a million details into everything new that goes into DCA, don't they? I have a feeling the new entrance complex is going to be visually stunning and full of charm.>> A million details cost millions too. Nobody wanted the show producer gig on the entrance and Sunshine Plaza - Tim Delaney ended up taking the assignment because not a single other person wanted it. He executed that area for $35m - that was all that was left over from the (already) meagre budget. Now they are spending $120m on that area - that is 1.5 TSMMs or 1.3 WoCs. My beef with the execution plan on the "re-do" of DCA is that early cash is being dumped into projects that won't drive guest attendance. All of the retheming like the Swings and Mulholland Madness won't bring (many) folks to the park - maybe some AP-ers to check out the redress but certainly no full-paying guests. I always believed that all of the early investment should have been in added capacity like TLM, CarsLand and the nixed HPB plans. Granted spending millions of dollars on the Swings and Flight School are chump change in the scheme of things (the entire DCA expansion is nearly $1.5bn now thanks to the soaring costs on Radiator Springs Racers - the most expensive attraction ever built now by ANY theme park) but I never understood why the entrance plaza was originally one of the early fixes.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<They do seem to be pouring a million details into everything new that goes into DCA, don't they? I have a feeling the new entrance complex is going to be visually stunning and full of charm.>> <<A million details cost millions too. Nobody wanted the show producer gig on the entrance and Sunshine Plaza - Tim Delaney ended up taking the assignment because not a single other person wanted it. He executed that area for $35m - that was all that was left over from the (already) meagre budget.>> Wow, thats pretty damn cheap for an area that suppose to usher in people into this park. Yeah, considering you are spending the same amount of money that it cost Winnie the Pooh in DL, you cant expect too much can you lol. <<Now they are spending $120m on that area - that is 1.5 TSMMs or 1.3 WoCs. My beef with the execution plan on the "re-do" of DCA is that early cash is being dumped into projects that won't drive guest attendance. All of the retheming like the Swings and Mulholland Madness won't bring (many) folks to the park - maybe some AP-ers to check out the redress but certainly no full-paying guests. I always believed that all of the early investment should have been in added capacity like TLM, CarsLand and the nixed HPB plans.>> I'm curious, what were the nixed plans of HPB? I remember you mentioned about BVS budget. But I have to admit, believe or not I'm looking more forward to this area than anything in DCA 2.0 . Why, for one, no freakin toons lol. And two, DCA NEEDS one area where you can just chiillll. That was one of the OTHER things missing for me there. Sure they now have Paradise Park now, but that place shuts down before sunset with WOC viewings (but it is sooo nice. One of my favorite areas in the park now ). And I look forward to seeing the red trollys go up and down in the area. I dont know if the price tag is justified, but one thing I learned with these later parks, its better to spend more than less . But I agree about some of the PP ride redos though. I dont get the point of changing them at all actually. Dont get me wrong, I like SSS, but honestly its still just a swing ride at the end of the day. They couldve got rid of it altogether and just build the viewing area as far as I'm concerned. GSS seem like a complete waste of money. VERY few people care this thing exists. Slapping goofy on it isnt going to make it more popular all of a sudden. I realize these are there mainly for capacity issues, but I dont see the need to change them although SSS came out waaaay better than thought. <<Granted spending millions of dollars on the Swings and Flight School are chump change in the scheme of things (the entire DCA expansion is nearly $1.5bn now thanks to the soaring costs on Radiator Springs Racers - the most expensive attraction ever built now by ANY theme park) but I never understood why the entrance plaza was originally one of the early fixes.>> Woah hold up, DCA redo is now at 1.5 BILLION??? WOW!!! That's officially twice the price tag of the original park now. Wasnt that like $700 million (and yes, it shows ). Well, I have to give them credit, they are REALLY trying to turn it around, arent they? And RSR is the most expensive ride? I heard somewhere its at $300 million, but I dont know if it was just for the attraction or the entire land? Can you clarify? I do wonder when alll the dust settles on this thing and its all up and running, where do they see/hope attendance will be by then? Its more rhetorical but as you say they are dumping a ridiculous amount of money on this park in such a short time, I wonder how much of it will be worth it at the end of the day? Will DCA 2.0 strike the chord 1.0 didnt?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <I'm just someone who recognizes the reality of what is happening in front of my own eyes.> The implication being, of course, that none of the rest of us "recognize reality" if we disagree with you on anything. Come on, dude - how pretentious is that?
Originally Posted By Dabob2 <again what am I missing? I mean, c'mon? > What you're missing is that while some things are changing, and no one denies that, many other things are not, and will be nearly identical to what they were in 2001. <How do you go from 0-20 unless there isn't a great new paradigm shift in terms of tone and theme of the place? > If this was only happening at DCA, you might have a point. But it's happening at all the Disney parks. Toonization is rampant. It's happening at DL, you've got Nemo showing up at EPCOT, I've heard you've got them showing up at TDS to a greater degree than before... it's everywhere. Nearly everything they add lately is tooned up; DCA is getting the most additions, therefore the most toons, but it's happening in all the parks. <But no I cant help that DCA 1.0 will always suck. > Oy. Can't help yourself, can you? Oh well.
Originally Posted By leemac <I'm curious, what were the nixed plans of HPB?>> There were some ideas bouncing around for added capacity in HPB by utilizing both the old Millionaire soundstage and the space formerly Hollywood & Dine. The concepts themselves are unimportant but they were original attractions and shows that brought much needed capacity to the park. <<But I agree about some of the PP ride redos though. I dont get the point of changing them at all actually. Dont get me wrong, I like SSS, but honestly its still just a swing ride at the end of the day. They couldve got rid of it altogether and just build the viewing area as far as I'm concerned. GSS seem like a complete waste of money. VERY few people care this thing exists. Slapping goofy on it isnt going to make it more popular all of a sudden. I realize these are there mainly for capacity issues, but I dont see the need to change them although SSS came out waaaay better than thought.>> The fundamental problem that Paradise Pier got saddled with was that it needed to be the attraction workhorse for the park. Tim Delaney had to come up with 8 attractions and all of the associated infrastructure of the land for $150m (they actually got to 9 if you include the ss rustworthy). Therefore the land had to utilize off-the-shelf attractions to keep the cost down. <<And RSR is the most expensive ride? I heard somewhere its at $300 million, but I dont know if it was just for the attraction or the entire land? Can you clarify?>> Keep going (and that is just for RSR). ) <<I do wonder when alll the dust settles on this thing and its all up and running, where do they see/hope attendance will be by then? Its more rhetorical but as you say they are dumping a ridiculous amount of money on this park in such a short time, I wonder how much of it will be worth it at the end of the day? Will DCA 2.0 strike the chord 1.0 didnt?>> It is a fascinating argument and goes to the heart of the company's strategy in SoCal. The problem is that there were only two options - stick or twist. The former wasn't viable so they had to twist which is accompanied with a huge price tag. The park never had a chance - there was no formal 5 or 10 Year Plan to add attractions. In an environment where you are largely dependent on AP-ers and repeat guests you need to constant evolve and add new experiences annually. DCA had no real future blueprint after it opened. Everything became a knee-jerk reaction - adding A Bug's Land and ToT and stuff like X Games. Ultimately if DCA 2.0 as you call it fails to meet expectations then that is the end of DLR expansion. The company will never commit that amount of dollars again for new hotels, DtD expansion and even a third park. It will simply maintain the existing infrastructure. I've always been skeptical about Anaheim's ability to support multiple parks and I guess in a few years we will find out.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>The implication being, of course, that none of the rest of us "recognize reality" if we disagree with you on anything.<< Hyperbole much? The statement relates to one thing and one thing only-- opinions about the DCA makeover. You know-- what we're talking about here on this internets thing.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>I always believed that all of the early investment should have been in added capacity ...<< And that was the belief of those who were masters of DCA 1.0. It was, ultimately, a failed strategy to save a deeply flawed park with limited appeal. The addition of big, popular Tower of Terror didn't drive attendance. The addition of quick-to-build, crowd pleasing Who Wants to Be a Millionaire didn't drive attendance. The addition of charming, family-friendly A Bug's Land didn't drive attendance. It's a backwards solution. Disney fans are attracted by a pleasing park, and then they look at the attractions. (That's what happened with Disney-MGM and DAK-- well built parks that needed capacity from day one.) They don't go to Disney parks looking for attractions, and then realize that there's a great park around them. People don't come to Disney theme parks just to "ride the coasters." They come to be taken away by a great show. The money spent on SSS and GSS and BVS is money well spent.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 >>The implication being, of course, that none of the rest of us "recognize reality" if we disagree with you on anything.<< <Hyperbole much?> No, not in this case, because... <The statement relates to one thing and one thing only-- opinions about the DCA makeover. > And that's what I meant. The implication is that if we don't agree with you on any aspect of the DCA makeover, that we we don't "recognize reality," as you in all your infinite wisdom and reality-seeing do. Not simply that we could just have a different opinion (gasp!) and recognize reality just fine, thank you.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Disney fans are attracted by a pleasing park, and then they look at the attractions.>> That's why you don't build a theme park for "Disney fans". You build for the masses and they would vehemently disagree with analysis - they wouldn't come just for a "pleasing park" - they come for attractions, shows and parades - the beautiful surroundings are a plus. You can't get to 100 million guests annually from "Disney fans". One of these days I'll stop posting on DCA-centric threads - it has been nine and half years' of Groundhog Days. I never seem to learn the obvious lesson.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "My beef with the execution plan on the "re-do" of DCA is that early cash is being dumped into projects that won't drive guest attendance." I agree with this with one exception - the entrance. Buena Vista Street will definitely be the draw to get some day trippers unfamiliar with DCA and DLR's offerings to switch to DCA from DL or at least plan a second trip to come back, or perhaps by multi-park passes. In my opinion the Sunshine Plaza redo is one the key features of all the changes.
Originally Posted By leemac Sorry Hans - with all due respect I don't think guests make commitments to spend their dollars on the basis of an attractive entrance. If that was the case then we would be seeing something other than the unspectacular teal Art Deco copy from D/MGM. Again I guess we will find out as the entrance makeover is now scheduled to slot in between the two next major openings.
