Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "That's why you don't build a theme park for "Disney fans"." Boy, isn't THAT the truth.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt "Sorry Hans - with all due respect I don't think guests make commitments to spend their dollars on the basis of an attractive entrance. If that was the case then we would be seeing something other than the unspectacular teal Art Deco copy from D/MGM." Well, judging from the models it's pretty obvious that guests will be able to see a lot more than just the turnstiles.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>That's why you don't build a theme park for "Disney fans". You build for the masses...<< Go back and reread the entire statement. It doesn't deal "just" with Disney fans, or just with a "pleasing park." It deals with the reality of what Disney has created: high expectations for their parks. People (ie: the masses) don't go to Orlando to ride the rides. They "go to Disney." And it is when Disney offers that elusive mix of rides, shows, shopping and dining that everyone is happy (not the least the accountants). But the package it's wrapped in is, frankly, bigger than what is contained. By simplifying this to "more capacity rides= more people through the turnstiles," it misses the point. And that's been the problem with DCA all along.
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>The implication is that if we don't agree with you on any aspect of the DCA makeover, that we we don't "recognize reality," as you in all your infinite wisdom and reality-seeing do.<< Again, hyperbole much? Based on this analysis, there isn't enough room in the room for my outsized ego and a laptop. Yet, I continue to reply.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 Look, I'm sure it wasn't your intention to come off that way. But you did set yourself on a different plane than other commentors, and said that you saw things "realistically," in contrast to the rest of us.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <again what am I missing? I mean, c'mon? > <<What you're missing is that while some things are changing, and no one denies that, many other things are not, and will be nearly identical to what they were in 2001.>> Okay, it IS feeling like we are going in circles now. I've said this this twice already: The stuff that ISNT a problem stays, the stuff that SUCKED goes!! One more time, NO ONE wants the entire park changed, just what sucked about the place. So yes, what IS being changed is great. Whats not is fine. And I'm guessing more will change in the future, but those are DCAs biggest problem areas. But NO ONE ever suggested the entire park had problems physically. And the they are doing a thematic revamp (which they been doing since 2002 anyway) and that obviously will have a wider appeal. Again, ALL good things, which we both seem to agree on . <How do you go from 0-20 unless there isn't a great new paradigm shift in terms of tone and theme of the place? > <<If this was only happening at DCA, you might have a point. But it's happening at all the Disney parks. Toonization is rampant. It's happening at DL, you've got Nemo showing up at EPCOT, I've heard you've got them showing up at TDS to a greater degree than before... it's everywhere. Nearly everything they add lately is tooned up; DCA is getting the most additions, therefore the most toons, but it's happening in all the parks.>> Again, the DIFFFERENCE all those places had toons in them because UNLIKE the geniuses who built DCA, it was recognized that Disney is still a family park and people want to see something of them. And the RATE of adding toon stuff there is just out of control IMO. Did you know that DCA will have more Pixar rides than ALL of WDW combined in 2 years? Thats right, one park, that started with ONE pixar attraction will now have more rides than Disneys biggest resort. Yeah, if thats not a sign of what DCA 2.0 has become I dont know what is. Its simply a very different park today. DCA 1.0 actually turned its nose at the stuff they are putting in today....not anymore lol. But all those guys have been fired, so its a new day . And my only POINT is you keep saying there is no thematic changes, but yeah, if you add change a park that tried its best to avoid toons at opening and leave it for more a 'sophisticated' crowd and young teenagers ONLY to add 20 later, it changes the entire dynamic of the place. Thats my only point. When I KEEP saying they are purposely changing the theme and tone of the place, this basically the proof dude. DCA is NOT about what it was at opening. The original theme failed, HARD!! Instead it being for just couples who want to sip wine or learn how bread is made (oh brothere) or learn about what makes California, California, its now capturing the EXACT same dynamic as DL is capturing and its allll about fantasy, families and fun or FFF . All of the original intent and vibe of the place completely dropped! Again, I dont understand you cant see this. But I'm guessing I'm going to get another message how DCA hasnt changed at all really. Its still the same place as before....keep telling yourself that . This is the only point I been trying to make. Yes, that a HUGE transformation to me. That said, it was the right direction to go in obviously. The adult sophistication angle wasnt working and when you plump down a big carnival in it, DCA 1.0 didnt exactly feel like EPCOT anyway . <But no I cant help that DCA 1.0 will always suck. > <<Oy. Can't help yourself, can you? Oh well.>> Relax, its a THEME park man. DCA doesnt have feelings lol. And no one is stopping you on saying your thoughts on it either, right? But yes, like I said, it SITLL sucks now, but it is getting better, much better. I'm focusing on the latter more these days. I think most people are. Thats the what is most important, agreed?
Originally Posted By DlandDug >>But you did set yourself on a different plane than other commentors...<< My actual intention was to avoid being pigeon-holed. In context, the statement isn't nearly as arrogant as it has been made out to be: "When it comes to DCA, I am neither a basher, gusher, or mixed-bagger. I'm just someone who recognizes the reality of what is happening in front of my own eyes." IE: I'm not a gushing fanboy, I'm not a relentless detractor ("DCA sucks!"), nor do I view what is going on now as a "mixed bag." I just call 'em as I see 'em. No slur intended on anyone else. That's all.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <I'm curious, what were the nixed plans of HPB?>> <<There were some ideas bouncing around for added capacity in HPB by utilizing both the old Millionaire soundstage and the space formerly Hollywood & Dine. The concepts themselves are unimportant but they were original attractions and shows that brought much needed capacity to the park.>> Well thats interesting and yeah, I dont understand WHY there isnt something coming to these areas by now? They just been sitting there for years. But I'm guessing in the future of corse something will happen with them. But that backlot is pretty dead most of the time from the few times I been in the park over the years. <<The fundamental problem that Paradise Pier got saddled with was that it needed to be the attraction workhorse for the park. Tim Delaney had to come up with 8 attractions and all of the associated infrastructure of the land for $150m (they actually got to 9 if you include the ss rustworthy). Therefore the land had to utilize off-the-shelf attractions to keep the cost down.>> Yeah, but its still sad they gave their BIGGEST land in the area nothing but off-the-shelf rides when you dont include Screamin at least. POORLY short sighted there, seriously. But I dont blame WDI, you know that. They did the best they could with the money they had. I blame all the people who got fired for this park in the first place. And the new team is doing wonders with PP. TSMM and TLM going in, Paradise Park is really beautiful and sets a different tone to the area and the new look and time period looks amazing. They are doing a great job with a truly bad situation . When Maliboomer goes, that will be a day to celebrate . Of course they are going waaaay overboard with tooning up the area, but welcome to a new DCA. <<And RSR is the most expensive ride? I heard somewhere its at $300 million, but I dont know if it was just for the attraction or the entire land? Can you clarify?>> <<Keep going (and that is just for RSR). )>> LMAO, just for the ride??? Wow, I cant imagine what this thing will do? The ENTIRE park only costed $600-700 million dollars. Will RSR cost more than the entire park lol. No, just joking, but it does tell you how different the mindset is now with DCA 2.0....they REALLY want to impress people now. I didnt get that feeling at all with the original park other than Soarin. Its costing them now, but yeah if they put just a tad more money and quality the FIRST time around, they probably wouldnt be paying for it like they are now. Live and learn right? <<I do wonder when alll the dust settles on this thing and its all up and running, where do they see/hope attendance will be by then? Its more rhetorical but as you say they are dumping a ridiculous amount of money on this park in such a short time, I wonder how much of it will be worth it at the end of the day? Will DCA 2.0 strike the chord 1.0 didnt?>> <<It is a fascinating argument and goes to the heart of the company's strategy in SoCal. The problem is that there were only two options - stick or twist. The former wasn't viable so they had to twist which is accompanied with a huge price tag. The park never had a chance - there was no formal 5 or 10 Year Plan to add attractions. In an environment where you are largely dependent on AP-ers and repeat guests you need to constant evolve and add new experiences annually. DCA had no real future blueprint after it opened. Everything became a knee-jerk reaction - adding A Bug's Land and ToT and stuff like X Games.>> THIS!!! This right here! This goes to the entire point of the argument I been having with Hans and Dabob and why I called Hans argument of Disneyland initial buildout disingenious. DCA NEVER had a plan. The park was to remain as it was, for at least what, a decade, maybe longer? And its sad a park that started off ho-hum to begin with had NOTHING in place to get people back just 1-2 years after opening. What were they thinking?? And the CRAZY transformation its doing now, at 1.5 BILLION and counting lol, basically proves its out of survival only. Not only THAT, the fact its shifting its entire theme in this time with all these changes is what really interesting about it (which KEEPS getting lost in the debate Hans made earlier with DL. The changes DL made was basically phyisical but was added to SUPPORT the themes, nothing more. DCA is trying to SHIFT its original themes into something else, which again, I never seen done at a Disney park before, certainly not at this level of transformation and money). If DCA ALWAYS had some kind of intent to build/change from day one REGRARDLESS how many people showed up the first few years I would agree. But as its been pointed out, there was NOTHING on the boards. DCA is doing it solely out of desperation, NOTHING MORE! Hell, everything its BEEN doing has been out of desperation lol. Now this time, they have a well laid out plan and not the ridiculous quick fixes as before and they are willing to throw some serious cash to turn it around. I applaud them for that. DCA has been in trouble for a long time now, attendance wise and perception wise. What I think is ironic in all of this is DCA started out as a park that was trying VERY hard to save a buck. But by estimates, when all of it is said and done, DCA would have spent over $2 billion in 10 years to save this park....NONE of which any of that money was ever planned at all according to you. Again, it only proves going cheap will cost you more in the end kids . DCA should be in every future Disney business models on how NOT to open a park lol. <<Ultimately if DCA 2.0 as you call it fails to meet expectations then that is the end of DLR expansion. The company will never commit that amount of dollars again for new hotels, DtD expansion and even a third park. It will simply maintain the existing infrastructure. I've always been skeptical about Anaheim's ability to support multiple parks and I guess in a few years we will find out.>> Wow I seriously hope that doesnt happen of course. Hopefully the people will come at the end. They seem to be coming for WOC, but of course thats new. But its getting GREAT reviews, so I'm hoping as things slowly come out more and more will sustain the audience this park needs. I actually have faith though DCA will be a must-see park UNLIKE at opening, but we'll see.
Originally Posted By LOVE-DCA just stoppin by real quick gotta get back to my pool side chillaxin! lol. about to bbq some ginger hawaiian style chicken! lol
Originally Posted By WorldDisney I think whats scary about all of this is IF DCA suceeded initially, REALLY suceeded as they thought, then we would be basically stuck with DCA 1.0 today . Imagine PP with the same off-the-shelf rides and stucco everywhere. No TLM or TSM. Sunshine entrance would be herald a 'sucess' and this bland area would be there until I had grandkids. SSL will be operating daily lol. No big plusses, no major character shows like Alladin, etc. I imagine TOT would be there and probably 1-2 C ticket attractions now, maybe a new parade but not much by now if the original plan stuck. But its no way in hell we would be seeing something like WOC there today, thats for sure . Sorry for saying this, lol, no I'm not, but I'm GLAD DCA stumbled and stumbled HARD!!! DCA's sucess wouldve told Disney their initial build out on this place was on point and it didnt need what it is getting today. And we wouldve been stuck with a very bland and uneventful park...as long as people paid to get in, Disney wouldve been satisfied at what we got in 2001. That's scary!! Same goes for HKDL I might add .
Originally Posted By WorldDisney LOL, same friend as before . (But he doesnt know I log on to Disney stuff though )
Originally Posted By LOVE-DCA o my if only he knew..lol lol i have crockpot question..not for u though,cause i dont think u cook
Originally Posted By Dabob2 "<again what am I missing? I mean, c'mon? > <<What you're missing is that while some things are changing, and no one denies that, many other things are not, and will be nearly identical to what they were in 2001.>> Okay, it IS feeling like we are going in circles now. I've said this this twice already: The stuff that ISNT a problem stays, the stuff that SUCKED goes!! One more time, NO ONE wants the entire park changed, just what sucked about the place. So yes, what IS being changed is great. Whats not is fine. And I'm guessing more will change in the future, but those are DCAs biggest problem areas. But NO ONE ever suggested the entire park had problems physically." Right. So what I'm saying is that given the many parts that will stay the same (most of which WERE fine from the beginning, as you've basically conceded) , the makeover is not AS radical as you're insisting. We're arguing degrees is all. " Again, the DIFFFERENCE all those places had toons in them because UNLIKE the geniuses who built DCA, it was recognized that Disney is still a family park and people want to see something of them." EPCOT had no toons when it opened. They were added later due to "popular demand.". TSS HD only toons in ML. Now all the parks are being tooned up and the DL style parks are being tooned up in places far outside their FaL's. DCA is the most so, but that's because it's getting the moat additions. If WDSP was getting the most today I have no doubt IT would be getting the most toon additions. Disney parks are on a toon kick and most of their additions these days are toons. The park with the most additions gets the most toons. "But I'm guessing I'm going to get another message how DCA hasnt changed at all really. Its still the same place as before....keep telling yourself that ." Since I never said that to begin with, I could hardly keep telling it to myself. What I said said was that it wasn't AS radical a change as you insist. "Relax, its a THEME park man" I am relaxed. I'm not the one posting 10,000 words ( and usually some variant of the same 10,000 words) with every post. .
Originally Posted By Dabob2 ">>But you did set yourself on a different plane than other commentors...<< My actual intention was to avoid being pigeon-holed. In context, the statement isn't nearly as arrogant as it has been made out to be: "When it comes to DCA, I am neither a basher, gusher, or mixed-bagger. I'm just someone who recognizes the reality of what is happening in front of my own eyes." IE: I'm not a gushing fanboy, I'm not a relentless detractor ("DCA sucks!"), nor do I view what is going on now as a "mixed bag." I just call 'em as I see 'em. No slur intended on anyone else. That's all." okay cool. That is how it came across, though. That you were pigeonholing the rest of us ( and what a struggle it is sometimes to avoid that on this subject if one insists on any nuance at all), and that the rest of us couldn't "see reality.". If you didn't mean that, great.
Originally Posted By WorldDisney <<Right. So what I'm saying is that given the many parts that will stay the same (most of which WERE fine from the beginning, as you've basically conceded) , the makeover is not AS radical as you're insisting. We're arguing degrees is all.>> I never SAID the entire park sucked, just most of it ;D. And the overall theme and layout was massively bad. That's a positive they changed all of that as well. It all goes hand and hand dude. We wanted the story telling again, check! We wanted night time shows, check! We wanted a time period, check! We wanted detailing in the queues, check! We wanted immersive lands, check! We wanted some fantasy, check! We wanted to see family attractions, check! We wanted original attractions, check! We wanted a berm, kind of check! Most IMPORTANTLY, we wanted a full day park that didnt feel like you got ripped off with a full day price in a half-day crappy park, a cautionary but optimistic check! ALL of that came AFTER ward and why the park royally sucked for many and were begging people to get in the place. They are correcting it now. So yes, I'm not saying the entire park needed to be knocked down and started over, although I would have zero problems with that lol, just that they INFUSE the elements I just marked off along with changing the dead zones of the park. They are doing ALL of that. NONE of that existing opening day or at least a tiny degree. They recognized how much they screwed up with this park. They are making the changes and everyone is happy . It took 8 years and over a billion dollars lol, but hey as long as its happening. <<EPCOT had no toons when it opened. They were added later due to "popular demand.". TSS HD only toons in ML.>> Exactly!! Epcot was short sighted and thought a park, even though a FULLY thought out one and amazing one at that still didnt need that element at all. It was a mistake. And YET, the morons who built DCA didnt learn their lessons with this the FIRST time around with Epcot and thought arrogantly enough, "Oh this time it will be differnet." How many times do you have to keep correcting the same mistakes??? EPCOT came out in the early 80's, it was the only non-MK park at the time. It was at least understandable then and it WAS actually a very sophisticated, adult park in every sense of the word. TPTB tried to make us think DCA was, but nothing of the sort when you got Six Flags rides in the thing. But still, here comes DCA in the early 2000's not learning much of ANYTHING it seems. Pretty pathetic. Now of course they are OVERDOING it thinking all they needed was more Mickey and character shows and that would solve their prolbem now. NOPE on both counts! DCA's problems are more than a lack of characters, but its one of the issues that shouldnt even have been an issue on day one either. <<Now all the parks are being tooned up and the DL style parks are being tooned up in places far outside their FaL's. DCA is the most so, but that's because it's getting the moat additions. If WDSP was getting the most today I have no doubt IT would be getting the most toon additions. Disney parks are on a toon kick and most of their additions these days are toons. The park with the most additions gets the most toons.>> Again, this is true, no one is denying that. But DCA has took it waaay beyound any other theme park. All the theme parks lately have gotten a mixture of toon and non-toon stuff. DAK got EE. Epcot got SPACE not too long ago. HKDL new additions will be that crappy TSL but its but its big E ticket attractions will be original storylines based on the land they will be in like Mystic Manor and the Grizzly Mountain ride. Most of the parks have a mixture at least. DCA havent built a single non-toon ride since 2004, and TOT is the ONLY ride built that was non-toon since opening. Quite a change there huh? They seem to think having no toons was the major problem. It wasnt. It was ONE problem, but there around 3 dozen more along with it. DCA just needed ORIGINAL attractions, not the half @$$ clones at opening. Again, at least we are getting those now. Could you IMAGINE what it woulve been like if we had Carsland and WOC at opening at least?? Those alone wouldve created giant buzz for this park and not the stinker it turned out to be. <<Since I never said that to begin with, I could hardly keep telling it to myself. What I said said was that it wasn't AS radical a change as you insist.>> Hopefully for DCA's sake, it will be radical enough to turn it around . Leemac seems to think they are doing TOO MUCH in that regard. I think they can do a little more. Some think they can still do ALOT more, but this is only phase one. We dont even know if a phase two will be planned yet and if they do who knows how much more will change? We'll see, but I'm sold for the future . But DCA 1.0 will all be forgotten in 15 years time at the rate they are going. <<I am relaxed. I'm not the one posting 10,000 words ( and usually some variant of the same 10,000 words) with every post. . >> LOL, I actually considered myself 'retired' from the long posts like back in the day. I mean I havent written this much on the subject in months. Up until a month ago, I barely came on LP the last four months or so. But its fun to be pulled back in every once in awhile ;D.
Originally Posted By Dr Hans Reinhardt Funny, didn't WD say that he was done with this discussion about 20 posts back?
