Originally Posted By Sport Goofy << A lot of revisionist Disney historians like to pin this on deceased Legend John Hench, but I don't buy that for a second. He may have had some similar concept for the stones, but I just don't believe his concept is what we've been subjected to since 1999. >> Which is more revisionist, someone stating the fact that John Hench led the design team that redesigned the EPCOT Entrance Plaza with the Leave a Legacy stones? Or someone stating that they don't believe John Hench was really behind the Leave a Legacy concept all that much? One is a fact, one is an opinion. You know, it's OK to say that a Disney Legend created something that wasn't all that great -- you don't have to revise history yourself to give them a pass. I've always found it funny, in a number of areas in this world, that the critics of "revisionist history" are usually the ones most likely to revise it as far away from the facts as possible.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ^^I just find it very shocking that John Hench suddenly lost all his sense of taste and theme park design on a project that had its already limited resources cut when it was given to him. That's all. I don't revise history. He designed it. We just don't know all the circumstances surrounding what eventually opened. At least I don't ... maybe you do?
Originally Posted By asdfasdfa Someone who claimed to have worked on the leave a "bad" legacy left a comment on the Reimagineering blog and said that it was originally supposed to be made of clear plastic! He also said the stickers on the legs of Spaceship Earth were not planned and were ugly.
Originally Posted By MPierce I am still trying to find John Hench's original concept sketchs of LaL. So far I am not having much luck.The location of the hat, the Wand, and LaL I think were all poor choices, not so much the design.
Originally Posted By ssWEDguy >> Never noticed that they painted graphics of the 'tombstones' onto the supports of Spaceship Earth << That's right. You don't really notice them until they're pointed out. >> I am still trying to find John Hench's original concept sketchs of LaL << Keep looking. I'd very much like to see some of the original design work.
Originally Posted By leemac <<^^I just find it very shocking that John Hench suddenly lost all his sense of taste and theme park design on a project that had its already limited resources cut when it was given to him. That's all. I don't revise history. He designed it. We just don't know all the circumstances surrounding what eventually opened.>> Actually I don't think I would associate John with the design for Leave a Legacy. It is like so much of the vitriol that is spat towards current and past management at WDI. I believe John was still SVP of Design when that concept came up. It seemed right for John to LEAD the design effort as Epcot's Future World was his architectual playground throughout its development. John wasn't perfect but he probably was the greatest imagineer that has ever come from that division. I must admit I don't recall the design ever being acrylic and I don't see how that medium would have survived exposed to the elements. I can only recall the granite concept but I may be wrong. I think an appropriate analogy is that surrounding the wand itself. I know people have criticize Eric Jacobson extensively about it. But he was merely part of the overall design team responsible for the Millennium Celebration at Epcot. He was the lead designer but the overall show director was Orrin Shively if I remember rightly. Is it Eric's fault that Epcot/WDW didn't remove the wand when it was originally timetabled? Of course not. But Eric is an easy target as he is still at WDI on the show design front and visible. Orrin ended up shifting over to R&D where he isn't so visible any more. All the environmentality for FW was under Orrin's remit for the Millennium.
Originally Posted By leemac <<We just don't know all the circumstances surrounding what eventually opened.>> Having re-read my post above I realize that I didn't properly communicate what I wanted to. My point was supposed to be that the more senior you become within WDP&R (at any division), the greater the responsibility and the greater breadth of work that you must manage. John led the entire WDI design division prior to his death and so he had to sign off on virtually every design element. Does that make him responsible for every failure? Of course not. The great the number of projects that you touch the more likely you are to have one that is a bust. Batting at 1.000 is impossible. But then John was comfortable to have his name associated with Leave a Legacy. He could have disowned the project if it was manipulated by WDW Ops or another faction. Personally I think it was just too large in scope. If I recall it was supposed to be home to something like 750,000 images but that was always going to be a stretch. A far more modest version would have been sufficient. I must admit I don't find them as offensive as some people do but can understand the cluttered POV. However Future World is supposed to be a simulated urban environment and therefore solid design forms (whether it be the fountain or Leave a Legacy granites) are more appropriate than a garden landscape.
Originally Posted By TP2000 I don't care if Betsy Ross designed those Leave A Legacy tombstones, the things are ugly and dreary looking. They need to be removed and replaced with some nice grass and pretty flowers. Pictures of my family arriving at Epcot for the day turned out a lot better before they installed those tombstone slab things.
Originally Posted By frostysnowman My husband and I are sooo happy that wand is coming down. Does anyone know if it will be replaced with something equally ugly? We hope not. I also agree that those LAL stones really muck up the entrance. We have photos of us in front of Spaceship Earth from the 25th anniversary time period, when it was simply flowers and fountains, and I think it looks so much prettier that way. And for now, I say forget taking the truck to MK to tear down the "playground" - get it to Disney Studios and attack that sorcer hat first!!
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Actually I don't think I would associate John with the design for Leave a Legacy. It is like so much of the vitriol that is spat towards current and past management at WDI. I believe John was still SVP of Design when that concept came up. It seemed right for John to LEAD the design effort as Epcot's Future World was his architectual playground throughout its development. John wasn't perfect but he probably was the greatest imagineer that has ever come from that division. I must admit I don't recall the design ever being acrylic and I don't see how that medium would have survived exposed to the elements. I can only recall the granite concept but I may be wrong. I think an appropriate analogy is that surrounding the wand itself. I know people have criticize Eric Jacobson extensively about it. But he was merely part of the overall design team responsible for the Millennium Celebration at Epcot. He was the lead designer but the overall show director was Orrin Shively if I remember rightly. Is it Eric's fault that Epcot/WDW didn't remove the wand when it was originally timetabled? Of course not. But Eric is an easy target as he is still at WDI on the show design front and visible. Orrin ended up shifting over to R&D where he isn't so visible any more. All the environmentality for FW was under Orrin's remit for the Millennium.>> I think you make a valid point. It is a team effort on most projects. And I completely agree, John Hench was/is the greatest Imagineer ever. He had more of an impact on what we see in a Disney park than even Walt himself. It's amazing the man was working on HKDL up until his death, although I have no idea to what degree. But what happens is the guy on top gets the praise and/or the blame ... and it isn't fair or accurate in both circumstances. But let's use Celebrity Imagineer Du Jour Tony Baxter as an example. He gets most of the credit for designing DLP. Now sure he deserves a lot of the credit, no doubt ... but he had an absolutely All-Star team working with him from Tim Delaney to Eddie Sotto to Chris Tietz to Tom Morris to Jeff Burke ...and I know I'm leaving a few out just because my mind isn't on topic fully right now. To just give Tony all the credit is an insult to all the men and women that worked on making DLP the most beautiful and detailed MK of them all. Sure, he helped put the team together and did a lot of design work ... but it was a team effort. Now, let's turn it around and look at the last big 'failure' that Tony was blamed for, DL's disasterous Tomorrowland 1998 redo. Is it fair to blame him for what in essence was a few hundred million dollar paint job? Absolutely not. Again, he was working with many people. Bad creative decisions were made, no doubt. But the scope and $$$ of the project kept getting downsized. I still think the 'Montana' version was preferable to what was built ... hell, I think leaving what was there was preferable to doing a half-assed job. But was it his fault Eisner and Pressler kept cutting the budget? Was it his fault that Rocket Rods was a bad fit to begin with? Was it his fault that GM, after the TT fiasco, pulled out of sponsoring it? Was it his fault that instead of an expensive AA show, the Carousel Theater got Innoventions? No to all of the above. Yet, he'll always get all/most of the credit for DLP. And he'll always get all/most of the blame for T-land '98. Neither example is right. Neither is accurate. And neither matters because people always look at who is spearheading a project. And John Hench's fingerprints were on LaL ... just like Eric Jacobson's were all over Mickey's wand. The problem for Eric though is he's no John Hench.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost >>>To just give Tony all the credit is an insult to all the men and women that worked on making DLP the most beautiful and detailed MK of them all. Sure, he helped put the team together and did a lot of design work ... but it was a team effort.<<< And that is something that Walt would and did do. Walt took credit for everything including afternoon and evening thundershowers! He wouldn't even allow his animators to have even the slightest billing on the movie credits. This has a long history at Disney so it shouldn't seem outside of nature that it still happens today.
Originally Posted By Sport Goofy ^^ I would have to disagree. Walt Disney gave lots of credit to his talented artists. Particularly in the television era, he would regularly put individual animators and artists in the spotlight during his introductions to Disneyland and the Wonderful World of Color. On TV, he would visit with the artists in the studio, mention them by name, and talk with them about the projects they were working on.
Originally Posted By Goofyernmost That was the older, more mellow Walt Disney. Also that was after the union was brought into the studio's mostly because the staff was tired of working there fingers to the bone only to be denied any credit for their work. They couldn't even take there talent else ware and be able to show, with certainty, that they were the force behind the character or the cartoon. No, in every thing I have ever read about Walt, even from Walt worshipers, that was a constant observation from them all. Walt Disney Studio's was Walt Disney as far as he was concerned and he took full credit for everything that happened there. He had even changed the company name from Disney Bros. Studio's to Walt Disney Studio's, excluding his own brother from the mix. I don't necessarily fault him for that because he, without a doubt, was the driving force behind the success. It was his insistence on doing things a certain way that gave them the direction and success that the company garnered. To say, however, that he was generous in sharing the spotlight...not so much!
Originally Posted By danyoung I agree with Goofyer. Walt said many times that the Disney name was much more than just Walt Disney, but he still insisted that the only credit name that the public would know was his. Even in his later days, when he would visit with other artists and technicians on TV, to my recollection he would rarely give them much credit, or even identify them by their full name. You wouldn't get "This is Blaine Gibson, who did this and this and this...". You'd get "Hey Blaine, tell us about this Lincoln mask". I know many animators worshipped him and would have walked through fire for him. But from everything I know about how he abused and intimidated his employees, I don't think I would have survived.
Originally Posted By frostysnowman I'm so happy that sign is coming down! Does anyone know if it will be permanent? Those LAL "displays" are horrible-looking eye sores. My husband and I liked it so much better when the entrance area was full of flowers and fountains - the view of that plus Spaceship Earth sans decoration was simply classic! And, before anyone tips the workers to take care of that "playground" at the MK, would you first have them stop at MGM and do something about that sorcer hat?!
Originally Posted By TDLFAN >>I'm so happy that sign is coming down! Does anyone know if it will be permanent?<< As far as we know... YES. The wand is history. <--does cartwheels
