Originally Posted By FerretAfros POTC wasn't an original part of MK. It was supposed to have a western based mega-attraction with a boat ride past scenes similar to POTC (but with cowboy dilemmas instead of pirates), a mine train coaster (evolved into Big Thunder), a scenic train, and hiking trails. It never got built because they were waiting to open it after the park opening, since it would be so expensive. When the park opened, they got so many complaints about no Pirates that they decided to add it, and in the process decided to scrap Western River Expedition, as the two attractions were fairly similar.
Originally Posted By LindsayC <<Lee, can you tell us just a little bit more about what will be coming out in the next Tales issue? Will it have some photo comparisons between the MK and TDL?>> Roger - it will actually be in Issue 15 - we opted to expand our TDL Hotel piece and cover the rest of the 25th anniversary first. This means we can put together an expansive piece about the creation of TDL - we have a lot of artwork of attractions never built etc. It should be a fun piece. I don't know if we will have room for a comparison between the two parks. It is a great suggestion though - I think we might just have too much artwork in the end (much like our Epcot and DAK issues recently).
Originally Posted By LindsayC ^^ Got my numbers wrong there. Issue 13 is next up and Issue 14 has the history of the creation of TDL.
Originally Posted By LindsayC I think what Lee was trying to express is that the TDL execution team were basically engineers, estimators, builders etc. - the architectural plans already existed from MK (whether built or not) and so there was no idea for architects to conceive the themed environments. Many of the core team (which was ridiculously small) were fresh out of college. Some of the old-timers were involved in parts (like Marc Davis etc.) but they were primarily focused on the nightmare that was Epcot.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Hmmmm interesting. These are many of the reasons why I never had much interest in TDL in the 1980's other than cultural curiosity.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "POTC wasn't an original part of MK. It was supposed to have a western based mega-attraction with a boat ride past scenes similar to POTC (but with cowboy dilemmas instead of pirates), a mine train coaster (evolved into Big Thunder), a scenic train, and hiking trails. It never got built because they were waiting to open it after the park opening, since it would be so expensive. When the park opened, they got so many complaints about no Pirates that they decided to add it, and in the process decided to scrap Western River Expedition, as the two attractions were fairly similar." Yeah, this story I know. However, I'm curious about the "New Orleans" area planned for MK. Since Pirates was not on the plans in the beginning, I'm wondering when the NOS portion was in the works. I'm sure the area was not in the works for long, since POTC was rushed into the MK once guests complained, and Card Walker listened. Maybe they thought to put in the NOS area just for POTC, but then decided to do it quickly and just put it in Adventureland instead. At any rate, I'd love to hear more about this planned area for the MK.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***It was deliberate, X. OLC wanted a lift - they wanted nothing original and it was even a push to get The Eternal Seas and Meet the World into the park. They just weren't interested - they felt that people would embrace the MK model wholeheartedly.*** I've heard similar, and it doesn't surprise me. It was a huge risk trying to build a "Disneyland" in Asia in any case...I'm not surprised they would desire a carbon copy (the strange amalgam TDL has turned into is, in a strange way, a tribute to that and a parody at the same time!). As for the Eternal Seas (far as I know, TDLFAN is the only guy who actually saw it...anyone else? Mrs X did, but completely forgot it til I asked decades later lol), and Meet the World...those were pretty lame anyway no? Mystery Tour, on the other hand...I liked a lot and I really miss now (especially now..with a 4 year old Disney fan in tow who would REALLY love to hold the sword I'm sure!). Was that an original on opening day, or did that come later? To me, THAT was a big plus for the originality of TDL.
Originally Posted By Mr X ***they were primarily focused on the nightmare that was Epcot.*** That's an interesting comment. So, EPCOT was a huge worry for them? Or a challenge conceptually? (I can imagine that it was, but this is the first I've seen "in print", since I never read the books or magazines). ***These are many of the reasons why I never had much interest in TDL in the 1980's other than cultural curiosity.*** Eh? How much did you really know about TDL in the 1980's? Where did you hear about it? What sources talked about it (I'm assuming you can't read Japanese kanji, but perhaps I'm wrong on that assumption). As for me, the first I *ever* heard of TDL as a kid was through the Guinness book of world records. I looked up "most popular amusement park" (geek that I was) and there sat Tokyo Disneyland. At the time, all I could think to myself was "well, I guess I'll never see THAT place". lol. Same thing with some of those Japanese coasters that were in the record books even way back then (like the Fuji-Q "highest G-forces coaster" the Moonsault Scrambler..which I was privileged (or not, depending lol) to ride before it was dismantled)...I always thought to myself "awe MAN...why couldn't that coaster be in AMERICA! I'll NEVER get a chance to go all the way to JAPAN and ride the thing!! Anyway, that's pretty much all I heard about TDL back in the 80's. I'd be curious to hear more about what you saw and heard about the place back then, Dave. Perhaps there was more talk about it where you lived (west coast, near Disneyland)?
Originally Posted By LindsayC Mystery Tour opened in July 1986 and closed just shy of its 20th anniversary in April 06. Some of TDL’s opening team (show writers etc) worked on it.
Originally Posted By LindsayC Yes Epcot was a nightmare for them - not only did it almost break the company financially but there were problems with the land... (The American Adventure was going to be at the entrance to World Showcase between the two park areas, but the land could not support the structure). There were problems with the sponsors... (Living Seas opened 2 years later than originally planned)... this is just the tip of the problems they faced.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo I had the chance to speak to a couple of imagineers at DL as a kid. I bought a book/magazine that I since lost that was published in 1980-81 that showcased Epcot and TDL. Also I have a DL book that had a couple of pages on TDL, and we had a friend in SF that did business in Tokyo and went taking pictures for me. I hated the look of World Bazaar, thought the railroad was strange, and having seen the plans (and the reality) of DL's new Fantasyland, I thought at the time Fantasyland looked terrible. I was intrigued with the Castle walk through, Mickey Mouse Review, Meet the World (in material I had on Epcot) and the Eternal Seas. Sadly those have closed. I hate Pooh, so am only interested to see what the hype is about. Not into rubberheads either - so intrigued with whether they are good. However, I love the thought of being able to see the Tahitian Terrace and Golden Horseshoe Review again, so they are top priorities. Dreamlights looks awesome too. I am sure now we will spend about 6 or 7 days at TDR drinking in the differences. So for me, TDL was only ever a cultural curiosity to me until TDS opened. Now it is a mission.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo As for hearing news, I kid you not, I was totally obsessed with Disney development as a kid reading books, drawing plans, writing lists, project planning. I do think if I never may have moved to the UK I may have joined WDI. Sadly since moving here all attempts have been pretty thwarted, so I work hard in my chosen field to fund my obsession. That's why I get mad when I see things being dumbed down - I worked hard to afford the finer dining options and collectables that my family only occassionally endulged in. When they dumb it down to what the rest of the parks around the globe offer, then I get really crabby.
Originally Posted By Mr X Good stuff posts 29/30 Lindsay, thanks for the info! Wow, I never heard about that American Adventure fiasco! Though, in hindsight, I like where it was placed afterall. Thanks for the commentary. I wonder why the Mystery Tour area was held up so long (I can only imagine the space was available (and maybe under construction?) when the park opened 4 years earlier?)?
Originally Posted By Mr X ***As for hearing news, I kid you not, I was totally obsessed with Disney development as a kid reading books, drawing plans, writing lists, project planning.*** I was too (ask my fourth grade teacher about *my* plans for a grand theme park along the lines of WD's original Epcot with a big dome over the whole thing lol)..but I was never able to scoop up any info on Tokyo! You were way ahead of me on that front! Mickey Mouse Review is still open, by the way (unless it closed and I didn't hear about it). Pooh...I hate too bro. But the ride is unparalleled. The hype is well worth it imho. And the fact that so many of us (me, you, WorldDisney, and many others) really don't give a crap about pooh says a lot about how amazing the experience really is. And yes, I'm sure my "don't give a crap about pooh" is probably somehow inappropriate. WHY couldn't that stupid character have a SLIGHTLY better name???
Originally Posted By Mr X ***I hated the look of World Bazaar*** Know what I hate the most? It's not the roof, or even the shops or the vibe of the place... It's the disauthenticity that kills me. Show me a sidewalk anywhere in the world (even a "fake" sidewalk...THAT'S my point) where you can sit on a bench and hang your feet over the side onto the street. Crappy workmanship, that place. And trust me Dave, noone despises world bazaar more than me. NOONE. But...in all fairness...when it's snowing there's noplace better to glance out onto the castle and watch the winter wonderland. In that situation (that situation ONLY), world bazaar is just perfect. But that's very rare (I was lucky enough to be there a few times, and it's really magical..it really is).
Originally Posted By leemac <<Thanks for the commentary. I wonder why the Mystery Tour area was held up so long (I can only imagine the space was available (and maybe under construction?) when the park opened 4 years earlier?)?>> It was all about capacity - the park had sufficient at opening to meet the initial expectations. The park was maxed out from the outset and so the plan for the rest of the decade had to be revisited - and attractions like Big Thunder and Mystery Tour brought forward. If I recall correctly they had originally pitched the King Stefan's Dining Hall but OLC balked at a restaurant in the castle. As the castle is a carbon copy of MK's castle there was the space for something else. Even from '83 onwards they had to consider the space restrictions on the site so that space was already valuable.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Yep, structurally Epcot had a number of real challenges with sink holes. But the team on Epcot did an increadible job.
Originally Posted By LindsayC [Though, in hindsight, I like where it was placed afterall. ] Yes I have a feeling the original placement nor its style were the best choice (and I think its interesting with the placement of Canada and Mexico on either side). The style was Future World based - a modern circular building with a hole in the middle. When we talked to Eric jacobson (WDI Creative Executive in charge of Epcot now but worked on the park during construction) he was diplomatic about the decision to not having it there: “It was decided that America couldn’t be seen as dominating the rest of the World... like you would have to go through America to get to the rest!” Where AA was built there was to be a break in the pavilions with a large fountain.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>But...in all fairness...when it's snowing there's noplace better to glance out onto the castle and watch the winter wonderland. In that situation (that situation ONLY), world bazaar is just perfect.<<< Indeed, this is where they really learned lessons for DLP. The Arcades are really lovely (one plan included the potential of a roof over MS). I think that is the best option as you have internal and external options for proceeding to the hub. World Bazaar, if executed as originally conceived could have been awesome.
Originally Posted By Malin *** If I recall correctly they had originally pitched the King Stefan's Dining Hall but OLC balked at a restaurant in the castle. As the castle is a carbon copy of MK's castle there was the space for something else. Even from '83 onwards they had to consider the space restrictions on the site so that space was already valuable. *** This remains a very valuable piece of space, and it may be time for OLC to start looking at these plans again. I would much rather see a Restaurant go in this space, than leave it lying empty like it is now, since the Mystery Tour was shut. Talking of space inside the Castle, I have heard the Castle in Hong Kong also has some space that for now remains un used. Seems a shame to have these Castles with available space to do things, but yet not actually see them do anything here. Reason why DLRP Castle will always be the best built and designed Castle. Every ince of that structure was designed to hold something.
