Originally Posted By DAR And besides is there anything more adorable than a class of kindergartners going up on a stage at the school's winter pagent, wearing red noses and sing, er shouting Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer?
Originally Posted By melekalikimaka "Ave Maria" is one of my most favorite songs ever, if not my most favorite. We never sang it in church, though. And, really, that's a good thing. Not many people can sing that song well.
Originally Posted By mawnck >>And besides is there anything more adorable than a class of kindergartners going up on a stage at the school's winter pagent, wearing red noses and sing, er shouting Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer? << Or Ave Maria?
Originally Posted By BlueDevilSF And from me to all of you, here's Miss Henrietta and Miss Merna, the music teachers of Mike Huckabee Elementary School in Little Rock, with a heartfelt Christmas song: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg7uGL6Ku20&feature=youtube_gdata" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...be_gdata</a>
Originally Posted By oredisneyfan The elementary school that all three of my daughters have attededd (now only one in kindergarten, the other two have moved on) has always had a thing about NOT singing Christmas carols, but they have always included at least one Haunaka song in the program every year for the past 10 year. This year our PTO put up a Giving Tree so people could donate gifts to families in need. One family complained to the principal that they felt "excluded" because they did not celebrate Christmas and they thought the tree was a religious symbol. the tree was promptly removed. This sparked a media frenzy in our small town.....which is very liberal I might add. the story was even picked up by National media. After a town hall type meeting the school put the tree back up and all are happy. The parent who initially complained said it was never their intention to have the tree removed????? I think this is why you see these types of actions..... We are open minded to everything that is not Christian. My Daughter who is five now tells me that the "Winter Program" celebrates the winter solctice, all fine and dandy but in our house we will still celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25.
Originally Posted By SpokkerJones Where are these things debated other than cable news? I never once saw or heard of Christmas being an issue growing up. I never had an issue with anybody celebrating Christmas, and I'm not a religious person. Do real people, and not just wackos, actually care about this "Attack on Christmas" nonsense?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>Do real people, and not just wackos, actually care about this "Attack on Christmas" nonsense?<< I think a lot of "real" people care about the commercialization and secularization of Christmas, just not enough to make a spectacle of themselves over it. And a lot of athiests suffer aneurysms at the mere mention of God. In short, people are a problem.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Christmas was originally a Pagan holiday commemorating the passing of the winter solstice and the lengthening of daylight. Early Christians claimed (stole) the day as their own celebration of Christ's birth. No Christian scholar actually believes Jesus was born anywhere near December. Over time various traditions became associated with the stolen Christian holiday. Christmas trees were modeled after shrines to the Assyrian god called Ashteroth. The Dutch came up with the myth of Sinterklaas (St. Nicholas) who would visit children in early December and decide if they were naughty or nice and fill the nice ones' shoes with gifts and haul the bad ones off to slavery. Now we hang stockings by the chimney. The modern version of Santa Claus was designed by an advertising illustrator for Coca-Cola. Today Christmas has become a festival of capitalism with major corporations staking their very survival upon Christmas sales. Christmas today celebrates our consumer lifestyle more than any religious or even pagan tradition. Anyone fighting to preserve the meaning of Christmas should first have to explain why we celebrate that day in December at all.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>Anyone fighting to preserve the meaning of Christmas should first have to explain why we celebrate that day in December at all.<< Sometimes a family member's birthday falls in the middle of the week. So, we'll get together on a day that works better for everyone to get together to celebrate. The important thing is, we celebrate it. The meaning is the same. So, I'm sure there are some Biblical scholars that can make the case for celebrating the birth of Christ some other time in the year. That's interesting, but it's really beside the point. People have, for whatever reason, chosen December the 25th, so that's the day we celebrate. In fact, I am sure that if it were suddenly agreed upon that we would call any of the other 364 days of the year Christmas instead, there'd be a group of people upset about any date picked. It's funny what gets folks riled up, isn't it?
Originally Posted By mawnck >>The modern version of Santa Claus was designed by an advertising illustrator for Coca-Cola.<< I believed this for ages myself, but Snopes says nope: >>However, the modern version of Santa Claus was not created by Coca-Cola; (Haddon) Sundblom's illustrations were based upon what had already become the standard image of Santa, as noted in a New York Times article published in 1927<< And they prove it with illustrations of the "modern" Santa going back to 1906.
Originally Posted By DAR <<The Dutch came up with the myth of Sinterklaas (St. Nicholas) who would visit children in early December and decide if they were naughty or nice and fill the nice ones' shoes with gifts and haul the bad ones off to slavery>> Done by his companion Black Peter
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<People have, for whatever reason, chosen December the 25th, so that's the day we celebrate.>> It wasn't just "people" who chose December 25. This date was already in use for centuries in celebrating the sun god, Mithras, and the Romans refused to give up the holiday. So Constantine declared Mithras' birthday as Jesus' birthday and hijacked the date for the Christians: <a href="http://www.globalpolitician.com/21575-church-vatican-religion" target="_blank">http://www.globalpolitician.co...religion</a> <> In the early times, several Christians who knew the truth of the gospel opposed the introduction of Christmas, but, what influence could their voice had possibly exerted against that of great, awesome Emperor Constantine and the Papacy? (Remember the fearsome period of Inquisition, and how the late Pope John Paul 11 had to apologise for the countless atrocities and murders committed against those who had dared to oppose the contamination of Christianity with heathen practices such as Christmas!) However, the oppositions did not die, but continued to linger, until it gathered great force again. In an article entitled, “Cosmic Christmas: Rebirth of the Sun God,” Barbara Aho reports: “In the fourth century, the Emperor Constantine designated December 25, the birthday of the Roman Sun-god Mithra, as the birthday of Jesus Christ, thereby placing the true Saviour among the pantheon of Roman gods. Constantine succeeded in drawing Christians into the pagan celebrations of Rome, which procured the religious unity needed for the success of the Holy Roman Empire. The empire dominated the world for 1,200 years until the 16th century, when the Protestant Reformers led 2/3 of Europe to break away with the Roman Catholic Church and discontinued the celebration of Christmas by reason of its pagan character. The Puritans who controlled the English Parliament in 1644 declared that no observation of Christmas was permitted, calling it ‘The Profane Man’s Ranting Day.’” <> Puritans did not celebrate Christmas because it was "too pagan" for their Christian sensibilities! Somehow, I doubt the Tea Party Birthers are aware of this part of American history, not realizing that the Puritans did not bring Christmas celebrations to New England in the 1600's. As the author from the article above pointed out, "Christmas has no Scriptural backing. The Apostles did not observe it. It is a product of a heinous compromise." The original Christians, the Apostles, did not celebrate Jesus' birth. So why should modern Christians? Modern Christmas has mostly been about commercialism, and not about religion. Hundreds of millions of people around the world have been celebrating the holiday with decorations and gift-giving for decades, who aren't practicing or active Christians. For this reason, I would never consider Christmas a "religious" holiday. Can anyone make the same claim about Hanukkah? I don't see many non-Jewish families lighting menorahs and playing with dreidels this time of year, so... there you go.
Originally Posted By Dabob2 If you get a chance, listen to David Sedaris read his own story "Six to Eight Black Men" for an absolutely hilarious take on this Dutch version of the Santa myth. Here on youtube <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbJpRLhaSqs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...pRLhaSqs</a> ... someone has illustrated it, but don't get too hooked into the images and miss the audio. I was on the floor the first time I heard this. It's in three parts; you can find links to parts two and three at part one. Note that it takes about 4 minutes for him to GET to the Santa part, but it's worth listening to how he gets there. You can also listen to him read "Santaland Diaries" (about him working in Macy's as an elf - apparently you have to rotate elf positions; one day a greeter elf, the next the photo elf, the next the cash register elf...). Also hilarious, but this one has no images and no audience (thus no audible laughs).
Originally Posted By FerretAfros "Where are these things debated other than cable news?" I've had these types of debated with people several times in the last couple years about things like Christmas trees in public places. The argument is often that you shouldn't have something religious like that in public, but in my Catholic upbringing, never once did we discuss the religious merit of a tree. Yah, it's kind of a symbol of the holiday, but it holds no real significance to the religious aspects of it. If you want a Jewish equivalent, put out a dreidel. If you want a menorah to be put out because of the religious connotations of the tree, then you should probably have a nativity scene along with it. Both of those are the religious symbols for their respective winter holidays, so I'm often baffled when people don't treat them as equals. " Early Christians claimed (stole) the day as their own celebration of Christ's birth." Isn't the solstice on the 21st? I thought that the summer and winter solstices were the first day of their respective seasons, and that's the way that they are mildly-celebrated by most folks these days. "The Dutch came up with the myth of Sinterklaas (St. Nicholas) who would visit children in early December and decide if they were naughty or nice and fill the nice ones' shoes with gifts and haul the bad ones off to slavery." And yet at a pub quiz I was at a few weeks ago, one of the hints given to lead us to the answer of "Santa Claus" was that he was a major figure in the Catholic church. I'm pretty sure that all of the saints celebrated by the church are real people, especially the ones who are considered to be major figures. Some people just don't get it. At all.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster St. Nicholas may have been a real person but the myths about his child-terrorizing shenanigans are almost certainly fictional. The St. Nick tale originally had nothing to do with Christmas.
Originally Posted By ChurroMonster Celebrating the solstice itself wasn't the point but rather the lengthening of daylight in the days immediately following it as a sign that spring and renewal were coming.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Modern Christmas has mostly been about commercialism, and not about religion. Hundreds of millions of people around the world have been celebrating the holiday with decorations and gift-giving for decades, who aren't practicing or active Christians. For this reason, I would never consider Christmas a "religious" holiday. Can anyone make the same claim about Hanukkah? I don't see many non-Jewish families lighting menorahs and playing with dreidels this time of year, so... there you go.<<< WE do both, and we are not Jewish or Christian any more. It is good to raise the kids to understand them all. But just like Christmas is not as important as Easter, Channukah is not as important to jews either (Passover is far more important).
Originally Posted By skinnerbox <<WE do both, and we are not Jewish or Christian any more. It is good to raise the kids to understand them all.>> Agreed. But you're definitely the exception not the rule. I'd love to see a Jay Walking episode with Leno holding a dreidel, asking the typical Hollywood tourists what it is. Most of these folks didn't even know what the Gettysburg Address was, so I'm thinking a dreidel will really fry their brains.
Originally Posted By oredisneyfan I know Christ was not born on Dec 25, but it is when we celerate his birth just the same. I always thought the winter solcetice celebrated the shortest day of the year, thus celebrating that from that day forwad the days would get longer. for some reason I always imagined that this had to do with farming and working the land....maybe more daylight hours and the end to dark winter nights.
