Originally Posted By dagobert >>>Sorry - industry jargon. Family Entertainment Center. Basically a standalone indoor theme park. They are all in vogue at the moment. We tried to do one in Japan years ago with OLC and just couldn't get the economics to work at all. They have high capex and operational costs but can't generate the same revenue in ticket media as theme parks. It is a very difficult project to make work - see the Millennium Dome. <<< Thank you. Was the FEC in Japan themed after Disney IPs? Are you talking about the Millenium Dome in London? I thought that's just a venue for concerts and sports events.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Was the FEC in Japan themed after Disney IPs?>> Yup. <<Are you talking about the Millenium Dome in London? I thought that's just a venue for concerts and sports events.>> No - it was designed to be a FEC of sorts - hybrid museum/Innoventions/show space. It was spectacularly expensive and failed miserably. It was then leased to AEG Live for concerts etc. and is the highest grossing venue in the world (I think it trumps AEG Live's Staples Center too). Worth reading up on it. It was a very mixed bag and shows why governments have no business being in the leisure industry.
Originally Posted By dagobert IS AEG Live associated with Anschutz Entertainment, the company that owns many soccer and hockey teams? I'm not sure, but I think that's the company that sold the New York soccer team to Red Bull. >>>and is the highest grossing venue in the world (I think it trumps AEG Live's Staples Center too).<<< So they abandoned the FEC concept and now it's a success?
Originally Posted By Jim in Merced CA <They have high capex and operational costs but can't generate the same revenue in ticket media as theme parks. It is a very difficult project to make work - see the Millennium Dome.> See also the Sid and Marty Krofft theme park that was all indoors. Thanks your solid explanations, leemac. Fascinating to see these theme parks ideas. I sometimes wonder if they think it's east to build, maintain and operate a theme park -- it isn't! Which makes the success of Disneyland all the mre remarkable.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I sometimes wonder if they think it's east to build, maintain and operate a theme park -- it isn't! Which makes the success of Disneyland all the mre remarkable.>> I'm absolutely convinced that we will won't see another major theme park development in the western world in this generation unless the economics of building and operating a park change materially. It is a terrible business to be in - massive capital outlays, huge risk and macro-economic issues. China is absolutely doing the right thing to rein in the excessive development - opening hundreds of theme parks won't build a sustainable tourism culture. Places like India, UAE, Russia etc. may chase after these marquee projects but there just isn't sufficient demand to justify the outlay.
Originally Posted By leemac <<So they abandoned the FEC concept and now it's a success?>> Yup - it was meant to be a celebration of British culture, innovation, science etc. and some of it worked but a lot of it didn't. The concept was certainly very noble but the final price tag to the country was over $1bn. AEG Live (Phillip Anschutz owns the company and other stuff like Walden Media) took a long lease and converted it into a massive arena with other RDE options. It has been a massive success. The whole area in North Greenwich has benefited but ultimately the bulk of that success has been financially beneficial to AEG Live and not the UK as a whole.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I'm not sure, but I think that's the company that sold the New York soccer team to Red Bull.>> Anschutz virtually created MLS - he still owns the Galaxy but has been invested in other franchises like the Rapids and the old MetroStars. He also owns the Kings.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 "You only need to look down the coast to see the Ferrari World disaster to have a guess how this one will go down." Can you elaborate on that? I have wondered how these mega projects in Dubai have been going since the bubble burst there.
Originally Posted By gurgitoy2 Also, I don't see the fascination with FEC concept either. It's not been done successfully yet, has it? Even Disney tried with DisneyQuest, and even Club Disney. The only one that I can think of that might be considered a success is the Hello Kitty park in Japan. That one seems to sustain itself.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Can you elaborate on that? I have wondered how these mega projects in Dubai have been going since the bubble burst there.>> Long story short - the original developer of Yas Island was Aldar Properties. They basically collapsed under the weight of their debt and the Abu Dhabi government stepped in to rescue the whole business via their investment business Mubadala Development Company (it holds 49% but there are other government entities that hold stock too). Ferrari World was an expensive boondoggle for the Abu Dhabi government but it was private investors in Aldar that were killed when the bondholders seized the company. It has never met attendance targets and probably never will. The Yas Mall is years behind schedule (it is right next door) and although Yas Waterworld is an exceptional water park there is still limited evidence of the island's ability to draw tourists from Dubai (it is over an hour's drive away which is a long way when the majority of tourists to the UAE don't hire a car).
Originally Posted By leemac << It's not been done successfully yet, has it?>> There is one in Taiwan called E-Da that is meant to have had a successful launch. It is a fascinating place - the mall and entertainment sections just don't meld very well IMHO. It is worth a google. That aside there aren't any. I think they could be successful in densely populated urban environments where the weather is not conducive to theme parks - like the DWA concept in Moscow (and arguably the Chinese ones considering the annual weather extremes).
Originally Posted By leemac << Even Disney tried with DisneyQuest, and even Club Disney.>> There is never any conviction when the Company decides to try new ventures that require actual assets. It is so strange to me that tens of millions of dollars (and in the case of DQ - hundreds of millions) can be dumped into developing and launching a concept and then they are effectively dropped like a hot potato when things need turnaround efforts. DDC spent millions identifying DQ locations rather than focusing on a few locations for launch. It cost the company a fortune to exit leases that were never used. CD was a good business but was never going to make the returns that Rasulo predicted. The Company decided that capital was best invested elsewhere. DQ was a decade too late - if it had had more traditional theme park elements like shows and attractions with the gaming pieces then it would have survived. No-one was prepared to give DQ the opportunity to evolve in the marketplace with actual consumers. Same thing with ESPN: The Store, Mickey's Kitchen, The Walt Disney Gallery, ESPN Zone etc. All of them had potential but once they encountered hick-ups it was easier to bail than evolve the concept.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>Same thing with ESPN: The Store, Mickey's Kitchen, The Walt Disney Gallery, ESPN Zone etc. All of them had potential but once they encountered hick-ups it was easier to bail than evolve the concept.<<< It's really sad that there are only two ESPN Zones left. I've only been to the one in Las Vegas, but I really liked it. It was a great sports bar. DLP definitely needs something like that in DV, like the one in Anaheim.
Originally Posted By leemac ^^ As far as the Company is concerned there is only one left. LA Live's ESPN Zone is owned and operated by AEG Live. ESPN Zone overreached with the arena gaming concept - that was c.50% of the space and just didn't generate the revenue anticipated. The Bar & Grill concept was very profitable. DV at Paris does have the Sports Bar - it is a bit grungy but is always packed. It could invest in some decent screens though.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>DV at Paris does have the Sports Bar - it is a bit grungy but is always packed. It could invest in some decent screens though.<<< I know, but way too small. DLP needs more and bigger bars and I just thought that an ESPNZone would be a great addition. Nowadays ESPN is also well known in Europe as well. Even we have two ESPN TV channels. I wish DLP would expand DV like WDW is doing soon. However they should fix the parks first and it seems some additions are on their way.
Originally Posted By Manfried Too many times people try to turn FECs into mega-mini theme parks. Thus making them too expensive for the market.
Originally Posted By leemac <<I wish DLP would expand DV like WDW is doing soon. However they should fix the parks first and it seems some additions are on their way.>> The next phase of expansion is in the planning stages. DV cannot currently meet the high fluctuating capacity that is needed (i.e. around park closing) and there needs to be indoor capacity to absorb those guests. Early returns on World of Disney have been positive so hopefully that will drive both third party participants and DLP O&O concepts.
Originally Posted By leemac <<Too many times people try to turn FECs into mega-mini theme parks. Thus making them too expensive for the market.>> That is definitely true - I think people look at Triple Five Group and think they can easily replicate it - (they operate both the Mall of America and West Edmonton Mall - plus they are attempting to resurrect the failed Xanadu project in Meadowlands, NJ). It isn't easily done. The two key costs are lease and operating costs driven by labor. These projects aren't cheap and you can't get a business model that has sufficient revenue to meet costs. I've lost count how many of these projects I've seen over the last ten years or so and the economics just don't add up.
Originally Posted By dagobert >>>The next phase of expansion is in the planning stages. DV cannot currently meet the high fluctuating capacity that is needed (i.e. around park closing) and there needs to be indoor capacity to absorb those guests. Early returns on World of Disney have been positive so hopefully that will drive both third party participants and DLP O&O concepts.<<< Good to know, because DV can get very crowded when the parks close. A few years ago I have seen plans that showed a second street leading to Lake Disney and it linked DV to a new hotel.
