Originally Posted By barboy ///Do we really have no jobs,/// Yes--- they ended up in China and India. ///you'd see my butt at Home Depot so fast your head would spin. I'll do what I have to do to pay the bills./// That's an admirable attitude; I am being serious not sarcastic, but Home Depot is closing stores too.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 Not sure I should wade into these waters yet again but here goes ... <<This nation has suffered through harder times before and bounced back. Times are tough compared to the relative comfort we're used to living in, but they've been much tougher.>> I'm really not sure that they have been. At least in my life. It seems that everything is cresting into a perfect storm now. From the housing crisis to the credit crisis to so many companies off-shoring jobs to people living without any savings and/or health insurance ... to oil prices that keep skyrocketing (despite NO market driven reason) ... To a total, utter and complete lack of leadership from DC. <<I'm not saying that I'm not concerned, but full-blown panic will set in when millionaires are selling apples on street corners to make ends meet.>> You won't see that likely. They'll just do what they do now when they wind up losing everything -- they'll commit suicide. You do realize that suicide stats aren't publicized because it's now one of the leading cause of death in the USA? Why are so many people taking their own lives? <<How many normal, middle class families have ever been able to buy a Mercedes? >> Uhm ... well, mine for one. (although you might say we aren't normal!) I think that point needs to be addressed for a few reasons, Nikki. First, you can buy a Benz for the same price or less than some Chevys and Toyotas. We're not talking S class here. I just walked thru my local mall and they had some Chevy SUV on display and it was $33,000. Second, I think many people in this country who are working class delude themselves into believing they're middle class. As a child I did the same, but I realized by my teen years that I lived in a very working class 'hood and that my family was working class. The thing is everyone, from the $8 an hour Home Depot worker to the dentist who lives in a $2 million home on the golf course and everyone in between wants to label themselves as middle class. Which brings me to this point of yours: <<God forbid, if I were to lose my job, you'd see my butt at Home Depot so fast your head would spin. I'll do what I have to do to pay the bills.>> Do you really think you could pay the bills on a Home Depot 'salary' vs. a teaching one? There comes a point where it truly doesn't pay for someone to work, it's a point that many folks miss (the ones who think you should work in a Burger King rather than sit home and watch TV or lie out near the pool). The problem is that what bills can you pay on $8 an hr? Seriously. After they take your taxes out. After you pay $4 a gallon to drive to and fro. When you get that pittance of a check, how is that going to pay your bills? If working doesn't pay your bills, then you shouldn't do it. It's just that simple. I just want to know what rational person believes that all those people being laid off from professional jobs that pay $50,000-$200,000 are supposed to do to live? Get a job at WalMart and downsize to a trailer park? This country is becoming third world and I see litle anger about it.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<That's an admirable attitude; I am being serious not sarcastic, but Home Depot is closing stores too.>> It may be admirable, but it isn't realistic unless the person has no debt and has savings to rely on as well. Someone doesn't go from a full-time job that makes say $22 an hour with benefits to a part time $7 an hour job with none and not lose their credit, their home and/or their sanity.
Originally Posted By barboy ///We have no jobs--- even the Mexicans are cutting out and going back home./// I wanted to reintroduce that point. Pretty soon Mexicans might be sending their pesos to relatives here in the states because things might become so bleak or dire. And imagine that! We're building a wall to keep the Mexicans out but they're leaving anyway on their own volition. I've seen it all now.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey << <<This nation has suffered through harder times before and bounced back. Times are tough compared to the relative comfort we're used to living in, but they've been much tougher.>> I'm really not sure that they have been.>> In our lifetimes, probably not. Both my parents lived through the Depression and they weren't sure where their next meals would come from most of the time. We haven't gotten that bad yet - I'm not going to cry because someone has to buy a Civic instead of a Benz. Things are truly bad when people can't afford day-to-day necessities; luxuries like a Benz are just that - luxuries (and BTW, when I was researching new cars recently, Consumer Reports didn't even recommend any Benzes - BMWs, yes, but Benz's, no). <<Do you really think you could pay the bills on a Home Depot 'salary' vs. a teaching one? There comes a point where it truly doesn't pay for someone to work, it's a point that many folks miss (the ones who think you should work in a Burger King rather than sit home and watch TV or lie out near the pool).>> I can't agree with that. If you're out in the workplace, there is some modicum of opportunity, and I'd rather have some money coming in than none. When I was training with TeachNOLA last year I didn't receive a salary, and I had to make a $1300 check last six weeks (most of that check went to my mortgage payment). I got behind on all of my bills, save my mortgage, and I did some mystery shopping to attempt to fill in the gaps. I didn't even come close to paying my bills, but knowing that a few dollars were coming in relieved the tiniest bit of stress. You could sit in front of the TV and do nothing, or you could make yourself useful and get a lower paying job. A Home Depot job probably wouldn't pay my bills, but at least I'd have something coming in, and something is better than nothing. <<I think that point needs to be addressed for a few reasons, Nikki. First, you can buy a Benz for the same price or less than some Chevys and Toyotas. We're not talking S class here. I just walked thru my local mall and they had some Chevy SUV on display and it was $33,000.>> The problem today is that people want to live high on the hog and now its coming back to bite them in the butt. I've tried to live high on the hog before myself, and I'm paying for it now. I maxed out my credit cards charging goodness knows what because I "had to have it". I was so bad off that I couldn't charge anything last summer, like gas and food, and have ended up in debt management program (not bankruptcy - my creditors are working with me so I can pay my debts off - I haven't defaulted on any loans or anything like that). I have no more credit cards and I won't be able to have anymore until 2012, when I'm scheduled to exit the program. I had to change a LOT of my habits - I don't eat out nearly as often as I used to (used to be three or four times a week, now it's about twice a month, if that), I try to buy things on sale when I go to the grocery and I had to kick my one-pair-of-shoes-per-paycheck habit. I'm not as comfortable as I'd like to be, but I'm getting by (I'm also working my butt off this summer so I can save $$$ for WDW in February - that's the one luxury I'll scrimp and save for, because I don't want to go without it). I can't sit here and preach because I'm one of the worst offenders, but people have to stop thinking that because they make a certain salary they can buy whatever they want and don't have to worry about the consequences. That's at least part of the reason we're in the pickle we are now: people bought extravagant homes they could just afford in the first place, and now we're going through foreclosures left and right because the economy is in the toilet. I know people will argue with me, but there is something to be said for living conservatively. I wish I had. I probably am working class, but to me $33,000 for a car is a lot. When you can buy a CR-V for $10,000 less, and it's still an SUV, the bigger, more expensive Chevy is just a luxury. <<This country is becoming third world and I see litle anger about it.>> I think that's stretching it, especially when you see people on countries that have no food or water. People are having problems meeting their high standards of living, but last time I checked most, if not all of us, still had food, indoor plumbing, and a salary of more than $22 a month. <<Someone doesn't go from a full-time job that makes say $22 an hour with benefits to a part time $7 an hour job with none and not lose their credit, their home and/or their sanity.>> Why would you only work part time?
Originally Posted By barboy ///they'll(ex- millionaires) commit suicide. You do realize that suicide stats aren't publicized because it's now one of the leading cause of death in the USA?/// I did not know that. I mean I know there are cases out there I just didn't figure that it was becoming a real issue. I have personally known 3 totally unrelated individuals who called it a day: one by pistol in mouth, another used pills and a third by car(autocide) but none was over money losses. I'll bet that the suicide numbers are nothing like what was going down in '80's Japan with stressed out students nor 90's Japanese businessmen who lost chunks of money.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>I probably am working class, but to me $33,000 for a car is a lot. When you can buy a CR-V for $10,000 less, and it's still an SUV, the bigger, more expensive Chevy is just a luxury.<< Hey, we have a 6 figure HH income, and we have never bought a 33K car. Too expensive. >><<This country is becoming third world and I see litle anger about it.>> I think that's stretching it, << He did say "becoming" not "is". We definitely are on track to 3rd world status. FWIW, management at the 100 billion dollar multinational where I work has told us to prepare for "wage equilibrium" with our 3rd world divisions. >>Why would you only work part time?<< Because that's the only kind of job one can find? The big box stores have lots of part time staff to save on benefits (part timers usually don't qualify) and overtime (time and a half) pay.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey << >>Why would you only work part time?<< Because that's the only kind of job one can find? The big box stores have lots of part time staff to save on benefits (part timers usually don't qualify) and overtime (time and a half) pay.>> Then you get two part-time jobs. Having one part-time job doesn't mean you can't get another.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey <<He did say "becoming" not "is". We definitely are on track to 3rd world status. FWIW, management at the 100 billion dollar multinational where I work has told us to prepare for "wage equilibrium" with our 3rd world divisions.>> Tell that to my ex-sister in law's father, who came here from Cuba and would regularly walk up and down grocery isles because he was amazed at the choices we were given. Tell that to the parents of many of my students, most of whom came here from Vietnam where they had little to nothing and here work their butts off so their kids can have opportunities that they never had when they were growing up in the middle of a war zone. If you said to these people that we were "on the track to becoming third world" they'd probably laugh in your face. Our version of third world and their version are two vastly different things.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <He did say "becoming" not "is". We definitely are on track to 3rd world status. FWIW, management at the 100 billion dollar multinational where I work has told us to prepare for "wage equilibrium" with our 3rd world divisions. < My large multi national corp hasn't officially said that yet - but wage freezes , benefit reductions, and the elimination of pensions 5 eyars ago leads us to the same place. The only way they will 'allow' ANY white collar jobs to stay here is if they are fiancially comparable with Brazil and India and SE Asia.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Where to start. There is so much BS in this thread that I have no idea where to start shoveling. <<We have no credit--- good luck getting a home loan unless one comes to the table with at least 10% down,>> Anyone who would even THINK about getting a home loan with less than 10% down is a freaking idiot in the first place. The only time we didn't come to the table with at least 20% down was our first home with an FHA loan. Maybe if you weren't buying the damned MB's you could come up with a decent down payment. Our household income is also 6 figures; closer to 200K than 100K. We have NEVER spent more than $25,000 on a car, and never would. Spirit, there is no way to help you. I pray every night that you get a better outlook on life before you jump off a bridge. As for the economy after 9/11 -- it looked terrible. Everyone was afraid to do anything. For a while it was questionable if people would ever start flying again. WDW and other tourist destinations took a hit live they've never seen before or since. And worst of all, many people like me thought it was likely the first attack of many to come. There is NO WAY I think the country is in as bad a shape as it was immediately following 9/11. vbdad... it is probably about 10 years too late in your career to do it, but you should have ditched that large multi-national and started up your own business. If you are anywhere near as smart as I think you are, you would have done very well and written your own ticket for the future.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^ what I did do was start teaching, at a university here. Yeah, late in my career ( now have 31 years at said multi national) - so that I have a career after my career. Again for those in my position we just got screwed - period. We wer not old enough to qualify for the old pension, but had given 20-24 years already under the guise of getting a pension for accepting lower than top wages ( and working 60-70 hour weeks while doing so.)- those who join my corporation now- or in the last 10 years know they are on their own - we got ambushed. as for starting my own business I could not agree with you more and have many successful entrprenurial friends. This issue is mine to bear, as I have never been the gambler type...very conservative and always looked at risking my home/lifestyle for my family as too much of a risk.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<In our lifetimes, probably not. Both my parents lived through the Depression and they weren't sure where their next meals would come from most of the time. We haven't gotten that bad yet - I'm not going to cry because someone has to buy a Civic instead of a Benz.>> Nobody is saying you should cry for anyone's choice of automobile (besides, with gas prices going up daily, we'll all be walking soon anyway!) And as a proud past owner of a Civic, I can say they're great cars. I'd rather be driving my Benz. But there's no shame in driving a Honda. <<Things are truly bad when people can't afford day-to-day necessities; luxuries like a Benz are just that - luxuries (and BTW, when I was researching new cars recently, Consumer Reports didn't even recommend any Benzes - BMWs, yes, but Benz's, no).>> I've had Fords, Pontiacs, Dodges, Hondas and Mercedes. The Fords were all lemons at best. My Pontiac Formula Firebird was the best of a troubled lot of American vehicles. My Hondas and Mercedes have all been 99% trouble-free. I will never own another American car unless someone gives me one for free. <<Do you really think you could pay the bills on a Home Depot 'salary' vs. a teaching one? There comes a point where it truly doesn't pay for someone to work, it's a point that many folks miss (the ones who think you should work in a Burger King rather than sit home and watch TV or lie out near the pool).>> <<I can't agree with that. If you're out in the workplace, there is some modicum of opportunity, and I'd rather have some money coming in than none.>> Come on. What modicum of opportunity is there for a professional who suddenly is making $7 an hour? To piss off a bunch of uneducated boobs who are jealous of what you have accomplished and the better life they perceive you to have? Maybe I can't say because I have my own unique spirited circumstances. But there's no way in hell I'd go from making say $2,000 a week to $130 because it would make a barely perceptable difference in my bottom line. Your time is the most valuable asset you have. To sell it for a pittance that won't support you is a terrible waste. <<When I was training with TeachNOLA last year I didn't receive a salary, and I had to make a $1300 check last six weeks (most of that check went to my mortgage payment). I got behind on all of my bills, save my mortgage, and I did some mystery shopping to attempt to fill in the gaps. I didn't even come close to paying my bills, but knowing that a few dollars were coming in relieved the tiniest bit of stress. You could sit in front of the TV and do nothing, or you could make yourself useful and get a lower paying job. A Home Depot job probably wouldn't pay my bills, but at least I'd have something coming in, and something is better than nothing.>> That's just my point though, Nikki. I don't believe something is always better than nothing. <<The problem today is that people want to live high on the hog and now its coming back to bite them in the butt.>> I think that's really overly simplistic. It's true in many cases, no doubt. But life is also not guaranteed to anyone, and there is nothing wrong with trying to get the most bang for your buck when you're around (unless you believe you're getting a second go around, this spirit doesn't). <<I've tried to live high on the hog before myself, and I'm paying for it now. I maxed out my credit cards charging goodness knows what because I "had to have it". I was so bad off that I couldn't charge anything last summer, like gas and food, and have ended up in debt management program (not bankruptcy - my creditors are working with me so I can pay my debts off - I haven't defaulted on any loans or anything like that). I have no more credit cards and I won't be able to have anymore until 2012, when I'm scheduled to exit the program. I had to change a LOT of my habits - I don't eat out nearly as often as I used to (used to be three or four times a week, now it's about twice a month, if that), I try to buy things on sale when I go to the grocery and I had to kick my one-pair-of-shoes-per-paycheck habit. I'm not as comfortable as I'd like to be, but I'm getting by (I'm also working my butt off this summer so I can save $$$ for WDW in February - that's the one luxury I'll scrimp and save for, because I don't want to go without it).>> All I can say is I wish you the best in getting out of your financial woes. They're no fun. <<I can't sit here and preach because I'm one of the worst offenders, but people have to stop thinking that because they make a certain salary they can buy whatever they want and don't have to worry about the consequences. That's at least part of the reason we're in the pickle we are now: people bought extravagant homes they could just afford in the first place, and now we're going through foreclosures left and right because the economy is in the toilet. I know people will argue with me, but there is something to be said for living conservatively. I wish I had.>> I'm sorry, but I don't see it as living conservatively vs living high on the hog. Life isn't that simple. Tell me, does anyone here remember the days when you couldn't pay for groceries with credit cards? If you do recall those days, you'll understand that our present economic problems are less a manifestation of personal indulgances and more a consequence of economic necessity. There is no escaping that as costs (of everything) rise, many life staples having quadrupled over the past six years, and wages remain stganant (or drop or disappear altogether) an economy can not stand. We're in economic collapse right now, talking heads aside. Does anyone here feel that anyone in the United States of America, regardless of their status, should have to charge a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread? The reason why grocery stores started to accept credit cards was because it became an economic necessity. The masses, at the end of the day or week, simply do not have adequete money left over to pay for something as basic as FOOD. Personally, I went to the grocery store just a few days ago, spent over $80 (not buying any meat, poultry or fish) and I walked out of said store without one complete dinner. Would someone (not picking on you Nikki ... but this just morphed in my head) like to make an argument that someone charging groceries for their children is being irresponsible? Should they simply starve? Start dumpster diving? Live out of their cars? Steal? Likewise, is the father who stops at the Chevron to fill the Civic up and finds that it takes $60 to top off his tank, and places it on a credit card because it is the only way for him to get to work, irreponsible? And let's not get into public transportation because for likely 90% of Americans it isn't an option. Credit debt isn't simply buying a pair of shoes a pay period. It's not a result of living high on the hog for many people. It's all about survival. Has anyone been to a doctor recently? Even with insurance the first thing you're asked for is a credit card to cover the co-payment. I could cite example after example, but that would be foolish. Here we have someone in a noble profession, a teacher, who won't be able to have a credit card for four years (that makes travel very difficult as well) eats out just twice monthly, whose big extravagance was a pair of shoes, what happens if she loses her job. Home Depot won't support her. <<This country is becoming third world and I see litle anger about it.>> <<I think that's stretching it, especially when you see people on countries that have no food or water. People are having problems meeting their high standards of living, but last time I checked most, if not all of us, still had food, indoor plumbing, and a salary of more than $22 a month.>> You know what? That sounds like Oprah talk. We can wheel in someone who was burned by a vengeful husband or a victim of childhood rape or someone who lost their legs in Iraq etc ... and feel good because we aren't like that. We aren't that bad off. Guess what? We're the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We are supposed to be the greatest country on earth, the most compassionate, the richest. The fact that others have it much worse shouldn't EVER come into any discussion. What should is that an ever growing list of nations have it much better. And again, no one seems angry. We need a grass roots 1960s like campaign because our leaders (ALL OF THEM) are letting us down and destroying this country as whores of Big Business/Wall Street. None of us are going to have a better way of life because of this. None of us. <<Someone doesn't go from a full-time job that makes say $22 an hour with benefits to a part time $7 an hour job with none and not lose their credit, their home and/or their sanity.>> <<Why would you only work part time?>> Well because most companies would prefer to have part time workforces. BTW, they'd never get away with that in Europe.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 ///they'll(ex- millionaires) commit suicide. You do realize that suicide stats aren't publicized because it's now one of the leading cause of death in the USA?/// <<I did not know that. I mean I know there are cases out there I just didn't figure that it was becoming a real issue.>> It is becoming a huge issue. And your government doesn't want you or anyone else to know about it. The media says they don't cover suicides (unless the individual is prominent) because it 'encourages' others. Frankly, that's a load of BS. No one decides to off themselves based on what some stranger did.
Originally Posted By DVC_dad Post 71 is full of BS Trippy. Many of those things are common sense but some of them are personal preference. Don't call people idiots who do things differently than you do. <<<Anyone who would even THINK about getting a home loan with less than 10% down is a freaking idiot in the first place.>>> My sister in law just bought a home last month. Her credit score is GOLDEN. She got a ROCK bottom rate on a Foreclosure and is putting about 5% of the total home loan into renovation. She will MOVE IN with about 30% equity. She is putting down ZERO and I totally agree! She qualified for a home mortgage three times the size of what she is getting even in this down market. There is absolutely NO reason for her to tie up more cash in the home. At the current rate, she could take the cash that she didn't put in in conservative investments and earn more interest than she would save by paying it into the home price. <<<We have NEVER spent more than $25,000 on a car, and never would.>>> Her home price is around $150K and the home value after her renovations (in the current down market) will be far and above that. She drives a used Lexus with around 25K miles on it that cost around $35k. I don't see a big problem with it. There is nothing magic about your $25K price point. <<<vbdad... it is probably about 10 years too late in your career to do it, but you should have ditched that large multi-national and started up your own business.>>> Why not take your own advice? You have been stuck to that University for a thousand years yourself. You could have started your own business too and maybe you could have retired 10 years ago. (All "devil's advocate aside - gratz on retirement, I do envy you guys for getting there and am very happy for you, and I hope I can come to MO and fish with you one day soon! )
Originally Posted By DVC_dad <<< The Fords were all lemons at best. >>> I could not agree with this MORE.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<Maybe if you weren't buying the damned MB's you could come up with a decent down payment.>> Trippy, I don't know if you're speaking of me or in general. Because my home is 100 percent paid for, no mortgage to worry about and there hasn't been one for years. My autos are also both completely paid for. <<Our household income is also 6 figures; closer to 200K than 100K.>> I have no intention of placing my income out here whatsoever. But I will tell you that at your level of income you and your wife are in the top 10% of households in the USA. In other words, compared to the average American, you're loaded. <<We have NEVER spent more than $25,000 on a car, and never would.>> I don't get why what you spend on a car is an issue at all. Do you know what the differnce between a $25,000 car and a $40,000 car is over your lifetime? Absolutely nothing. <<Spirit, there is no way to help you. I pray every night that you get a better outlook on life before you jump off a bridge.>> If you want to help me, you'll stop looking at the world like all is rosey just because it is for you. I live in a very affluent community, I work in a field others would kill for, I get to meet and hang out with some amazing people, I have traveled so much in the past decade I can't begin to tell you all the wheres and whens. But I am hurting now and others are hurting far more. And this idea (and it mostly comes from those right of center) that it is personal and not due to the economy and the fact our leaders are beholden to big business and treat it like the 'favorite child' is disgusting to me. Whether people are defending the President breaking the Constitution or Disney allowing its parks to decay all boils down to the fact that personal responsibility seems to not count politicians and large companies. But you had better not be late by one day on one credit card because suddenly they'll raise your interest rate from 7.9% to 29.9% and that is somehow fair and legal. All the while a company is allowed to steal from its employees' pensions and the government doesn't step in. It's just sickening. <<As for the economy after 9/11 -- it looked terrible. Everyone was afraid to do anything. For a while it was questionable if people would ever start flying again. WDW and other tourist destinations took a hit live they've never seen before or since. And worst of all, many people like me thought it was likely the first attack of many to come. There is NO WAY I think the country is in as bad a shape as it was immediately following 9/11.>> I think it's worse myself (likely doesn't surprise you) because the economy still had all those millions of professional jobs that have disappeared since then, gas was under $1 a gallon and every nation (except a few rogue nations) was on our side. Oh, we also weren't stuck in the Vietnam (only worse) of our generation too. So, yeah, I think things are much worse now.
Originally Posted By barboy ///Anyone who would even THINK about getting a home loan with less than 10% down is a freaking idiot in the first place./// No, not necessarily at all RT. When gambling it's best to do it with other people's money. Consider the following very true story which likely will frustrate you: I know a couple who had a no money down, interest only loan and clearly made out like a mini bandit. This couple bought their house in the East Bay(outside of Oakland, CA) in Dec. '03 for $588K. They signed loan papers for say $600k($12k went for inspections, appraisals, prorated taxes, closing costs) They refinanced the house at 100%, 'neg. am' ****that is paying less than interest only*** in July '05 for approx. $825k. and pocketed about $210k (after fees, appraisals etc.) By early this year they walked from their house which they now owed about $865k(due to the 'neg. am.' feature) because it plummeted down to around the $550k mark and the husband was fired/laid off. It was good for them that they did not play the conventional 20% down game because they now have $200,000 more than they would have if they never came to the table. Also, it was very wise that they exercised the minimum payment option for 2 1/2 years thus saving themselves about another $25k.
Originally Posted By barboy //barboy is drunk and stoned..... again. ;p// You are very close..... just exchange that conjunction in your statement with another one like 'or' and then it would hold true Actually, the drug just kicked in about 5 minutes ago so I was sober when I wrote #78. So...., expect any of my immediate future postings to be influenced by Cabo Wabo tequila reposado. LOL
