Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey Spirit- You live in affluent community, you own TWO automobiles (at least one of which is Benz) and you're actually going to post that you're hurting? If you're hurting, sell the Benz! If you're hurting, sell the house and move to a less affluent neighborhood! There are people in this world who can't afford A car, much less a Banz, and you're going to post on here that you're hurting - I wish I was in your kind of pain, my friend. <<Come on. What modicum of opportunity is there for a professional who suddenly is making $7 an hour? To piss off a bunch of uneducated boobs who are jealous of what you have accomplished and the better life they perceive you to have? Maybe I can't say because I have my own unique spirited circumstances. But there's no way in hell I'd go from making say $2,000 a week to $130 because it would make a barely perceptable difference in my bottom line. Your time is the most valuable asset you have. To sell it for a pittance that won't support you is a terrible waste.>> The only way you'd "piss off the uneducated boobs" (nice verbage, by the way) is if you flaunted your education as though it made you better than them. My niece and her husband are both college educated and work at Home Depot and are doing very well for themselves. He's an assistant store manager and she works in appliances, and she makes almost as much as she made working as a sales rep for GE, without the hassle of all the travel she had to do previously. Home Depot may be "below" some professionals, but there comes a time when you have to swallow your pride and do what you have to do for your family. If that means working 60 hours a week at three different jobs to put food on the table, so be it. My dad did it and he didn't have a college degree - does that make him an uneducated boob, too? Spirit, I like you but sometimes you're very elitist - and not in a good way. <<Would someone (not picking on you Nikki ... but this just morphed in my head) like to make an argument that someone charging groceries for their children is being irresponsible? Should they simply starve? Start dumpster diving? Live out of their cars? Steal? Likewise, is the father who stops at the Chevron to fill the Civic up and finds that it takes $60 to top off his tank, and places it on a credit card because it is the only way for him to get to work, irreponsible?>> Of course that's not being irresponsible, and no one says it is. But there are people who throw their 5 year olds lavish birthday parties at spas that cost a few thousand bucks (and I'm being conservative) because "that's what little Joanie wants since her best friend had it" and they're charging it on their credit cards. There are kids that have cell phones that cost $400 and up, who rack up hundreds of dollars in cell phone bills a month at the age of 10, because mom and dad bought it because they had to have it. There are people like me who spent a few thousand dollars on a Vespa when I really couldn't afford it because I had to have it. We have become a "mine mine mine" society and it's gotten us in trouble, and that's part of the reason we're having the problems we are now. You watch the news, Spirit - Americans are more in debt now than ever before, and it's not all because Daddy is charging a loaf of bread to feed the family. In some cases, maybe he's charging that loaf of bread because he blew his paycheck on the newest video game system or a $200 pair of Nikes. I'm not the only irresponsible user of credit out there, and we're certainly not in the minority. People have lived high on the hog - they live beyond their means. Champagne dreams on a Bud Light budget, they call it. I've been guilty of it, and I know I'm certainly NOT in the minority. <<Credit debt isn't simply buying a pair of shoes a pay period. It's not a result of living high on the hog for many people. It's all about survival.>> No, it's not always - and I didn't get into debt buying a pair of shoes a pay period. I don't think most people got into debt by buying groceries, either. If I'm being simplistic, so are you. <<We're the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. We are supposed to be the greatest country on earth, the most compassionate, the richest.>> Oh please. We were the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA when the Depression hit as well, but it still hit. You can't ride the wave of success forever, and we're hitting a rough patch. Things are bad when you're paying $4 a gallon for gas, and I'm not saying that everything is fantastic by any means. However, things will pick up eventually. We've got a new president coming in come January - after eight years of good ol' GWB, that's got to lead to some type of improvement. <<You know what? That sounds like Oprah talk. We can wheel in someone who was burned by a vengeful husband or a victim of childhood rape or someone who lost their legs in Iraq etc ... and feel good because we aren't like that. We aren't that bad off.>> We're not, and for you to sit there and say you're suffering with your paid off house and Benz in the driveway is pretty disgusting. How can I sit here and say how bad I have it when there are people like the lost boys from the Sudan? When people are suffering in Darfur? When children in parts of the world don't have access to clean water, much less medical care? I'm sitting at home typing on my computer surrounded by a TV, a bathroom with a toilet and clean water, air conditioning, a refrigerator, electricity, etc. and I'm going to complain about how bad I have it? Poor me! I'm not going to say I'm not worried, especially right now - there was a shakeup in administration at my school last week and the board has called a meeting for the staff on Tuesday. I'm terrified that I might lose my job, even though there are some teachers with 30+ years experience that make at least double what I do and would probably go first if they had to start cutting people due to the budget. They haven't indicated that there will be any cuts, but who knows. It's part of the reason I'm awake right now; I'm scared and I can't sleep. But even though I'm worried, I tell myself that things will work out in the end - if I didn't do that, why even bother getting up in the morning?
Originally Posted By X-san ***Spirit, I like you but sometimes you're very elitist - and not in a good way.*** IS there a good way to be elitist? ;p
Originally Posted By X-san ***But even though I'm worried, I tell myself that things will work out in the end - if I didn't do that, why even bother getting up in the morning?*** Things always work out the same way in the end, that's for sure. If you feel yourself getting overwhelmed, I'd suggest checking out "The Power of Now"...very comforting book, changed my life.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>The only way you'd "piss off the uneducated boobs" (nice verbage, by the way) is if you flaunted your education as though it made you better than them.<<< Nope, not true. When I first started out, I had a few non pro jobs while I looked for one. I never really mentioned college or what I was doing to search for a way out. But I had one person tell me off for using big words and I never fit in. Sorry Nikki, on this note I think you are being delusional. It can and does happen.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>***Spirit, I like you but sometimes you're very elitist - and not in a good way.*** IS there a good way to be elitist? ;p<<< Of course there is. And indeed to a degree there is nothing wrong with it. It strives one to improve and do better. Heck, if people were not interested in this, why are there interested in sports team performance, company performance, rankings of best cities etc. There is a drive in humanity to be better, and it is a part of the American spirit. I aim to be the best in my industry, I aim to be the best father, husband, son, brother and friend I can be. If that makes me an elitist, then I am proud to be as such.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>You live in affluent community, you own TWO automobiles (at least one of which is Benz) and you're actually going to post that you're hurting? If you're hurting, sell the Benz!<<< I don't want to pick on you Nikki, but your naivity as a padagogue is somewhat worrying. It's not always that simple. Spirit did not say he was starving. Selling something when there is little to no market makes little sense. Sometimes you stick in to try to wait for a better time. Sometimes hard does not mean poverty line. For example, we need a bigger house because the kids are growing (and we would love more), but the market is so soft, we would have difficulty selling ours, so we stick in and aremaking plans to live differently.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Well, I do have to say that California did feel poorer than Europe last time we went. As a proud native Californian it made me feel very sad.
Originally Posted By X-san Re post 85, that's not the way I think of the term "elitist" whatsoever. The beginning of your post I would refer to as "discriminating" (BIG difference), and as for how you describe yourself that's certainly more along the lines of being a perfectionist or striving for excellence (a good thing), again not really what I'd call being "an elitist". +++I don't want to pick on you Nikki, but your naivety as a pedagogue is somewhat worrying. It's not always that simple. Spirit did not say he was starving. Selling something when there is little to no market makes little sense. Sometimes you stick in to try to wait for a better time. Sometimes hard does not mean poverty line. For example, we need a bigger house because the kids are growing (and we would love more)*** Now that does sound elitist though. I'm more with Nikki on this one. You don't NEED a bigger house (nobody does), you just want one.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Depends on level of need. By the way I am pompous, and I am elitist. But that is me. People take me as I am. Like me, great, that's nice, and I am likely a caring, giving friend. Don't like me, ok it's our mutual loss. But not everyone likes everyone. That's impossible.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Depends on level of need.*** No, it depends on level of want. Needs are very basic and I'm sure just about everyone on LP has them covered (since everyone here can afford the luxury of a computer, that seems pretty clear cut).
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo No, needs and wants are intertwined. My level of need is less than many, but needs, wants and aspirations in intrinsically intertwinded. Let's take love. Is that a want, need or aspiration? We can live with out it, but who would want to. So for some it could just be a need or aspiration. But for many of us, love is seen as a universal need.
Originally Posted By X-san I thought we were talking about material things. In terms of material needs, they are quite simple and basic and no, noone "needs" a bigger house. It's perfectly okay to want one, but you don't need it. Trust me, I've seen Japanese families packed into a space most Americans would consider "impossible" to live in, but live in them they do, quite harmoniously. I'm sure most of them would like a bigger place (hell, I sure would!), but obviously they don't "need" it.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Ok, maybe need is strong, but priority wise, it is high. Since basic needs are covered, then this slips in our spectrum as a need. Eg as needs are covered off, people feel wants become needs. For example on can make do with a small car, but with a big family, a bigger car becomes a need. I mean this is a silly debate. Given that people do not "need" cars or to own their homes. We could survive on gruel and fruit and veg with a little protein. But we do not. It is about building up one's portfolio. Yes, I could have worked in a garage instead of going to college, post grad and working hard in a career. But I had a need to try harder. Simple as.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Ok, maybe need is strong, but priority wise, it is high.*** Sure, that I understand.
Originally Posted By X-san ***It is about building up one's portfolio.*** Interesting. And yet so many times you have mused here on LP about whether or not it's all "worth it". As far as feeling you had to try harder, that's admirable. But, on the other hand, some people really like working in a garage. C'est la vie.
Originally Posted By X-san ***Eg as needs are covered off, people feel wants become needs.*** And that, I believe, is exactly what Nikki was trying to point out.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Agreed. But I cannot help but feel the US is in decline, and that is very sad. As a proud American, I am sad that Europe feels more affluent. Better for my family I suppose, but the US used to always try to be number 1 and succeeded. The decisions of the last 8 years are not fully to blame, but they sure have contributed a lot. Just think what the budgets for all those military contracts could have achieved?
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo "***It is about building up one's portfolio.*** Interesting. And yet so many times you have mused here on LP about whether or not it's all "worth it"." Ya, and I have to recognise, some of this is a real professional hazzard. My role does sometimes have me questioning people, in fact between the urban pigs and the thousands of cases of abuse and neglect I deal with each year, it can put me in a very cynical place. Is that wrong? I mean people moan about lesser things on this board. I thought you were my friend, and yet you through this back at me? That's harsh!
Originally Posted By X-san I wasn't trying to throw anything back at you, dude, I was making the observation in terms of what EVERYONE goes through with that stuff. But anyway, I replied more to the email you sent me and I'll just let this go. I didn't write it to tick you off, I promise.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey davewasbaloo, I'm no naive, I'm being honest. If you're hurting bad enough, you sell the paid off big house and the paid off big cars if you need the money, even if you take a loss. If it comes down to living in a huge house with huge utility bills and putting food on the table, people will take the loss so they can have the cash. If times are hard enough, they'll do it. You're truly hurting when you can't afford to go to the grocery. You're truly hurting when you can't afford to make car repairs. You're truly hurting when worried about your next paycheck. I have family members who are hurting - one of my cousins had surgery for a long-standing hand problem that was completely botched two years ago. He's working on a settlement with the doctor, but he lost his job as a result. He's exhausted his savings, he can't pay his rent and he's working with charity organizations to try and keep himself on his feet while he attempts to start his own landscaping business. Then there's Spirit with two cars in the driveway living in an affluent neighborhood who says he's hurting - their experiences aren't even in the same ballpark. In my career, I've worked with everyone from physicians to janitors, and those college-educated people who are treated with disdain are those who act as though they're better than everyone else. I've worked with a research scientist who is easily the most intelligent person I've ever met, but who has endeared himself to everyone because he's a good guy who uses "big words" but treats everyone equally. I've also worked with plastic surgeons who's claim to fame is giving the strippers on Bourbon bigger boobs that believe they're on the same level as God and dismiss those they believe aren't on their level. Perhaps it has little to do with your degree and more to do with your attitude. I also completely disagree with your assertion that a house is a want and not a need. It is far more economical in the long run to purchase a home than to throw money away on rent, and therefore makes more sense. I'm not the only person who is naive, my friend. <<I mean this is a silly debate. Given that people do not "need" cars or to own their homes. We could survive on gruel and fruit and veg with a little protein. But we do not.>> No, it's not silly at all. I personally need a car to get to my job, which is 20 miles away from my home. It makes sense to own your home instead of renting it. I own a 1998 Honda CR-V and a studio condominium. I would like a new car and a two bedroom home, but I don't NEED it. My sister would like a larger car than her CR-V for her two kids, but she doesn't NEED it. I have no problem with 10 year olds having cell phones for emergencies in this day in age, but a 10 year old doesn't NEED a $400 PDA with internet capabilities so they can download the latest music videos and run up a huge bill. A 10 year old doesn't NEED a pair of Coach tennis shoes. I don't NEED a $350 Coach bag. I don't NEED a new pair of shoes each and every month. I didn't NEED the copy of People I bought yesterday, nor the $1.99 piece of cake I bought at my grocery's bakery, either. But something small like that isn't going to put me into debt. It's when people start WANTING beyond their means that we have problems, or complaining that since they can't buy a Benz they're bad off. That's the problem I'm referring to at the moment.
