Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<You will only stick around if everyone agrees with you? That is really lame Spirit.>> No Trippy. No one has to agree with me. But I'm up to here with going back and forth about how great things are now. How people aren't really suffering and if they are it's because they've lived above their means and should all be driving Chevys and going out to dinner once a month at the Olive Garden, while shopping at WalMart. It's kind of like being in the UPPER TWO PERCENT of Americans, which you are if you bring in $200,000 a year in your household, while passing judgment on others. For someone who professes to be left of center, you sure don't sound it. So many people are hurting -- most far worse than I am -- but I have compassion for them. And I don't see much of that here. That saddens me. Maybe I shouldn't feel so much, but I kinda like that aspect of humanity. <<I love having you around, and respect what you say. But at the same time if I disagree with something you say I will express that viewpoint. As you express your viewpoint if you disagree with me.>> Thanks and I disagree with plenty. Your point about the difference between a $40,000 car and a $25,000 is laughable really. Unless I've greatly underestimated you and you're in your mid-90s and have truly been able to invest at 6% and save over half a million dollars based on the purchase of a vehicle. You're great at pulling far-fetched numbers out of your behind that may be true, but only in an absurd set of circumstances. Your point about getting a job at a fast food outlet for $7 if you're a professional out of work (because the government allowed your job to be shipped to India) and working a few years because they'll make you an assistant manager for $25,000 a year is ludicrous to me as well. You simply don't go from doing something with meaning to the lowest of jobs and just work your way up, while being happy and sane. It's not realistic except maybe to George Bush. I just need to focus my own energies on other things that are important to me right now. <<When the going gets tough the tough get going. They don't go scampering off with their tail between their legs!! You are better than that that Spirit... please don't lead us to believe otherwise.>> Trippy, if you think I'm going anywhere with my tail between my legs, you're mistaken. That's not how I go. I'm just not going to debate whether people can suffer while living in a nice home or driving a nice car. You don't have to be living in the 'hood and working three part-time jobs and living 10 to a three bedroom apartment to be suffering. I was planning on leaving anyway ... if my contract comes through, I'll be working non-stop and out of the country. And I sure as &*%$ don't intend to spend my limited free time debating the fact our country is in a huge mess -- even if things will have turned around greatly for ME! And if things work out, people will likely be jealous of what it is I'm doing and harp on me again for complaining that life isn't great while I'm doing something so few will ever get to do... well, what you don't know (only a couple of people here do) is that I was the victim of a violent crime a few years ago and have been struggling to get both justice and a semblance of normalcy back in my life. The experience with the justice system has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt that this country is largely a big lie. I've witnessed the kind of corruption that you wouldn't believe unless it happened to you. I'm not looking for sympathy here (let alone pity), just 'splaining. And it's why I'm very sensitive to the suffering of others. Because I'm not a self-centered Spirit and I don't believe the world revolves around me ... and whether I'm doing well or not doesn't change the big picture. I guess I just have little left to say. And I don't want to get involved in a nasty online spat when I don't take most of these discussions all that seriously (although this one, I am). You know how to reach me via email. As do select others. I'll be back at some point likely in the fall. I always return.
Originally Posted By Inspector 57 <<When I first started out, I had a few non pro jobs while I looked for one. I never really mentioned college or what I was doing to search for a way out. But I had one person tell me off for using big words and I never fit in. Sorry Nikki, on this note I think you are being delusional. It can and does happen.>> Yup. Absolutely, davewasbaloo. Not to be uncharacteristically immodest, but... I generally fit in just about anywhere. My sincerity and non-judgemental approach usually win me over. I'm an educated middle-class gay white boy, but that doesn't usually prevent me from connecting heart-to-heart with crack whores, tatoo'd brothas, straight macho guys, conservative Christians, whoever. But I've been in situations in which the prejudices of the people I'm with are totally insurmountable. I took on a volunteer job once to do a one-off project to raise money for a neighboring community. It was generous of me; not something that many would do. It was a TON of work. I did it to be supportive of the local city. And from the very first moment I met with reps from the community I wanted to help... They TOTALLY refused to work with me. It just got worse from there. All because of their prejudice. I was from Ann Arbor. Therefore, I MUST be snobby, elitist, and condescending. And not to be trusted. I completed my project. It was one of the most unpleasant things I've ever done. I'll never do it again. Nikki, I agree with many of your points on this thread, and I'm sincerely appreciative that you've made them. But you have been unfairly harsh here with davewasbaloo. If he was rejected by the uneducated people with whom he worked, that is NOT, de facto, an indication that he was lording it over anyone or acting superior. As you yourself have indicated, the less educated sometimes seize upon excuses to justify things for themselves.
Originally Posted By X-san ***And if things work out, people will likely be jealous of what it is I'm doing and harp on me again for complaining that life isn't great while I'm doing something so few will ever get to do*** Hmm. Vague much? What will you be doing? I wanna know what I'm supposed to be being jealous about.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>You want to blame the government for nearly everything, seemingly. I live in a city where people, instead of using government subsidized housing as a temporary solution, have used it as a permanent solution, and GENERATIONS of families live in these drug ridden projects. They are so reluctant to try and make their lives better that they are fighting and have even rioted to keep these ridiculous excuses for homes open even though they've been condemned as a result of Katrina. I work in a school system where parents encourage their children to fail tests and get classified as special needs so they can receive a check from the government. I worked at Charity Hospital where a patient undergoing occupational therapy said he was only interested in getting his trigger finger back. It's very easy for you, Spirit, to work your white collar job and say from your affluent community that its the fault of the government. As someone who works in a public school system and worked at one of the most infamous charity hospitals in the country, I can tell you FROM EXPERIENCE that it's not all the fault of the government. Come spend a month with me, or a month with some of my friends who still work at University Hospital (where Charity is now based) and see what we see.<<< Actually, I would see that as the government's fault too Nikki. I am working on some back to work programmes as well as my Social Work Practice programme where we are dealing with getting people with disabilities, addictions, mental health issues back on their feet. It is about a whole systems approach which is woefully lacking in the US - aspiration development, cohesive education and employement programmes, time dollars, reward for improvements etc. The US does not do it sadly. The UK does not do it well enough. But progress in Scandanavia and New Zealand shows it works. It is a government issue.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<It's kind of like being in the UPPER TWO PERCENT of Americans, which you are if you bring in $200,000 a year in your household>> I never said that. I said I was closer to 200K than to 100K. That could mean anywhere from 151K to 199K. I’m not about to define it any more closely than that. <<Your point about the difference between a $40,000 car and a $25,000 is laughable really. Unless I've greatly underestimated you and you're in your mid-90s and have truly been able to invest at 6% and save over half a million dollars based on the purchase of a vehicle.>> Have I personally done that? Heck no. But you asked how much of a difference it would make over a lifetime, and I told you. I used forty years figuring that is a person’s working lifetime; typically about 22 – 62. I didn’t pull any numbers out of my butt. I went to my Credit Union’s site and got the monthly payment for the two loan amounts. Then I used another calculator showing what you would accumulate by investing the difference each month at 6%. No hocus-pocus there – just straight incontrovertible fact. <<You simply don't go from doing something with meaning to the lowest of jobs and just work your way up, while being happy and sane.>> Really? My wife and I both started at the Univ of Minn in entry level Account Clerk positions. We managed to do OK; even without benefit of a college degree. We worked hard and took our opportunities when they came along, but we certainly didn’t put in super-human effort. More than anything it takes plugging away at the same goal year after year. I never said people aren’t hurting. I just thought that you consistently overstated your case. Yes, some people are hurting a lot right now. But the great majority of people in this country are inconvenienced by $4 gas; not devastated by it as it seemed you and others here implied. Things aren’t all wonderful and rosy. But they aren’t going to hell in a hand basket either. All I was looking for was some middle ground. I hope you get your contract and have a great time with it!!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 Trippy, with all due respect I think the part that eludes you is having worked 60-70 hour weeks for companies over 20 - 30 years....getting more and more educated along the way -so that you can perform your job better and then having the company put that job on a plane to India or Brazil or SE Asia ONLY because they can hire someone there for $600 /month to do part of that role. Hell they can hire multiples and still be so far ahead. Customer satsfaction, or getting the job done at the same quality level is no longerimportant. How many large American companies can you say you've had a good experience with lately ? Likeyl few to none because quite frankly they no longer give a rat's behind. When this happens to you andyou are in your 40's andGod help you like me 50's - and you hit the job market and no one wants you because you are too big a health/ insurance liability ( not based onfacts but based on demographic profiling)- you would findout what this feels liketo have the rug pulled from under youafter all that time - and then no longer are your skills relevant - it is only your age.Add to that having your pension stolen because it was really onlya 'verbal agreement' anyway and have the governmentlook the other way. Working for a university ( or likesome ofmy friends who work for the corrupt city of chicago and cook county in gov't jobs - there is no fear of this today. Likely why the damn politicians care less either. Their pensions are safe and protected - and the jobs cannot be moved due to 'security; reasons under GSA contract. Let's pull the pensions from out reps and senators tomorrow and see hwo they react. Let's farm out all the admin and cinance jobs from SSA to Brazil and hearthe uproar. You are isolated from all of this, but it has a LOT to do with the 'sky is falling' view many have. Look around - how many American made itemsare thereany more. Each previous 'depression/recession' has been recovered from due to our manufacturing capabilities- this will happen no more. I went out to buy a steam iron the other day because ours died - went to Target with the intent to buy one made in America - regardless of cost - sorry every single brand was built in China. Go to the toy aisles - and find yourself someAmerican made toys. Clothes - don't make me laugh. Ford and GM will be shadows of themselves in < 10 years. We have outsourced the whole damn country and it is only a matter of time before either the students at universities are either all foreigners - orthe number dwindles to where , Yes,jobs there will be affected also. I don't feel this way just for myself ( kindalike Spirit says) but for the thousands upon thousands ( 9M+ )of those less fortunate than me who have seentheir careers go away in the blink of an eye....taking away much of the American dream. I was fortunate to get a job teaching - yet 3 advanced degrees there bailed me out - yet they will draw no interest in the marketplace as I am 53 and a 'risk' I have had exactly zero sicks days over the last 15 years - but no one cares. I had pneumonia 15 years ago and missed a week - before that I don't believe I ever took a sick day either - yet get anyone to review your resume. plenty of people in my area ( also considered affluent) are really hurting and the houses for sale are astounding now. If we are elitists because we dragged ourselves from poverty ( as I did)- busted our proverbial butts night and day for decades at work and school to try and improve our lot, but now are upset having futures takenaway from us under the guise of ' global economy' BS - then sign me up, I am one of them too.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<You simply don't go from doing something with meaning to the lowest of jobs and just work your way up, while being happy and sane.>> Sorry Spirit... I didn't pick up on the first part of your statement. Yes, it is difficult to take a huge backwards step in your career. When I left the startup company and came back to the University I took a 50% salary cut. It wasn't easy and we bounced a few checks until we were able to restructure our expenses. I also have to admit that in my case it was more a drop in salary than a drop in status. The position I took at the Univ when I came back was not an entry level position. It just paid like one. ;-) So I really wasn’t in the situation you referred to. But I still contend it is better both for your bank account and your sense of self worth to be working at something rather than sitting at home doing nothing.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <a href="http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/gm-reportedly-considering-job-cuts/story.aspx?guid=%7B9210C993-56C0-4F58-A88B-15F8561F0DB4%7D&dist=hplatest" target="_blank">http://www.marketwatch.com/new...hplatest</a> here is the continued march to the sea today for GM. Cut more brands - even more jobs ( over 50,000 in the last few years) - and consider replacing those brands with small cars from other places. <a href="http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSBNG26150420080707" target="_blank">http://www.reuters.com/article...20080707</a> GM will be Chevy and Cadillac within 3-4 years ( if not sooner ), if they are lucky. They are headed the same way as International Harvester - who now is a niche brand - not a world leader. The amount of lives affected by this is staggering. Chicken Little is getting warmed up.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan What it comes down to is whether you believe America's best days are behind us or not. Personally, I am concerned as we are clearly entering into some uncharted territory here at a fast pace. The days of finding one company to work for for one's entire life, then retiring with a pension are gone for most people. It's now a much harsher time, Capitalism with a sharper edge. But Americans have indeed made it through darker times or at least different times. So, it's a mistake to ever count them out. What Trippy is saying in this thread is true -- the economy as well as personal circumstances are hugely affected by attitude and psychology. Allowing one's self to get sucked to far into hopelessness and doom and gloom isn't the way to go. It becomes self-fulfilling prophecy. But I also saw what happened with my dad. 39 years with a major airline and within 3 weeks of 9/11, he was let go (along with thousands of others). He was lucky -- he was only a year from retirement anyway, but still, it impacted him, he went through the stress of not knowing if his pension would be obliterated by the company. There was no going away lunch, no "thank you for all you have done." It was done coldly, pack up your stuff, security will escort you 5 people (from his dept.) to the door. Brutal.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 ^^^^^^^ this is the new world order in the business marketplace andpschologiclaly my fear is that because people know they will not be one place more than 3-5 years ( by design ) - the best efforts may never be drawn from them. R&D departments were full of people who dedicated themselves to companies ( right or wrong) - and the fact that major corporations hold millions of patents etc is a testament to these people andtheir dedication. Will that ever be the same again, I don't believe so. Younger people have the advantage to plan now for their futures knowing thy are in charge - however not trying to be a slam here, but I have met few as dedicated to their jobs as previous groups. I don't blamethem, I don'tbelieve I would have been either. But that will affect the end product - be it a service or one of the few commodities still left here. it truly is uncharted water, and I have yet to see the upside of it. I hope I am wrong, as I have 2 daughters I would like to think will be successful , and make a difference. I hope their opportunity is here.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan this is the new world order in the business marketplace andpschologiclaly my fear is that because people know they will not be one place more than 3-5 years ( by design ) - the best efforts may never be drawn from them. << Or, those with an entreprenurial spirit will use their skills at innovation and start new companies themselves. This, to me, is a potential positive with a huge upside. Mega-corps like GM can't easily turn on a dime as market conditions change. They're designed for business cycles of a bygone era. Smaller, leaner, more innovative companies are not as bogged down with red tape. Need to go in a new direction? Done.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<What Trippy is saying in this thread is true -- the economy as well as personal circumstances are hugely affected by attitude and psychology. Allowing one's self to get sucked to far into hopelessness and doom and gloom isn't the way to go. It becomes self-fulfilling prophecy.>> Thanks. Before we got sidetracked into semi-related discussions, that was my point. Things are certainly not great for everyone, but they are not terrible for everyone either. People need to keep a positive attitude. If we all start thinking we are doomed, we certainly will be.
Originally Posted By dshyates What I gather from this thread is that if you are making more than 150K/year, living in a modest income state, then its easy to be positive. 80% of Americans make less than 60K/year. The median salary in my state is $16,477. There are very few people in my state with a positive outlook.
Originally Posted By barboy So what do you economic glass half fullers say about: no water no credit no home equity offshoring of jobs no oil The devalued dollar foreigners laying claim to real property on US soil the end of manufacturing/exports as we once knew it and the rise of a domestic service economy 'Mom and Pop' have died while giving birth to super retailer chains who are stingy with employee benefits Corporate CEO salaries and options in the mega millions while the rank and file exist on a pauper wage the obnoxiously high price of medicine/surgery/doctor visits The economic sky is falling fast here in the US and 3rd world status is fast approaching.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan It's never easy to be positive. It's much easier, always, to find reasons for worry, gloom, hopelessness. One has to actively make a choice about how they want to be -- a person sure that there's nothing but bad times in our future, that everything's pointless, or a person who accepts that life indeed has some harsh ups and downs and that you have to force yourself to bounce back from that. There are wealthy people who are miserable. Poor people who are positive and upbeat. I know people are hurting, and I'm not making light of it. But I also know that if you succumb to that constant gloom and doom outlook, it sucks you in, makes it impossible to change one's situation. Being positive takes courage and damn hard work. Being negative and hopeless is the easier route.
Originally Posted By Kar2oonMan >>The economic sky is falling fast here in the US and 3rd world status is fast approaching.<< You may be right. People predicting the end of things only have to be right once. But I doubt you're right. Americans are made of tougher stuff than they're given credit for these days. You watch and see.
Originally Posted By dshyates "Americans are made of tougher stuff than they're given credit for these days. You watch and see." That's my optimisism. I have no doubt that the American people will pull this one out. What the GOP has done to this country is criminal.
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <Being positive takes courage and damn hard work. Being negative and hopeless is the easier route.< I guess being much closer to situations likeoff shoring and the corporate mess ( for lack of a better word) gives me a litte more insight. The media covers preciosu little of the issues going on,maybe if they did more people would take notice. Neither party wants this to happen and neither will address. I guess I am saying wake up before it's too late people. We make virtually nothing here any longer. Try the test I asked earlier and let me know how it goes just buying American.. it is impossible to find some lines of items with even one product let alone a choice. <What the GOP has done to this country is criminal.< While I understand some of the things you are referring to, here is an issue. Do not give the Democratic party a pass on the situation either. The off shoring of white collar jobs in earnest began with 3 years left on the Clinton White House. If was started then and you were told no more about it then than you are today. If the Democrats had any stones they would be screaming about this issue the last 8 years as it has continued - but they ignore also - they are also in the lobbyists pockets - so on a lot of the economy, sorry they are as much to blame. For the general malaise, no, but economically , yes.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip Well, so much of this stuff is again based on local conditions that the situation for me is not going to be the situation for you. <<So what do you economic glass half fullers say about:>> <<no water>> We have more danged water than you can shake a stick at -- 10,000 lakes you know. So I assume you are talking about California and the desert southwest. My understanding is that much of your water comes from Lake Mead, and that the water levels in Lake Mead have been down considerably in recent years. In turn, water levels in Lake Mead are dependant on the Colorado Rockies snowpack. Well don't worry Bunkie... HELP is on the way. The Rockies had considerably more snow than usual this year. The snow water equivalent for the region on February 1st of this year ranged from 100-200% of normal. You guy's can't really be all that worried about your water supply or you would stop filling your swimming pools and turn off the fountains at The Bellagio. ;-) Source: <a href="http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2007/snow0708.html" target="_blank">http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/cl...708.html</a> <<no credit>> There is PLENTY of credit for credit-worthy people. When the mortgage industry tanked it was because they started handing out credit to non-credit -worthy people. <<no home equity>> There is plenty of home equity. Yes, it is currently at lows not seen for a long time. And what would you expect, with everyone pulling equity out of their homes for the past half dozen years to buy everything from new cars to boob jobs? But still, American's equity in their homes in 2008 stands at 46%. That means if you own a million dollar house, you owe $540,000 on it. I can live with that. Of course this is very localized so equity in YOUR area may be nowhere near as high. <<offshoring of jobs>> This is a problem, but it can only last so long. As more work goes to these areas supply and demand takes hold and foreign wages rise. I've already read of some companies reducing their offshoring because the increasing wages made it much less attractive. <<no oil>> There's plenty of oil. Even the Saudis say it is not a question of inadequate supplies of oil. We have a problem with speculation and lack of refining capacity. Both are problems that can be dealt with. <<The devalued dollar>> It's taken its toll on oil prices and in other areas, but not all is lost. The price of our goods is now much less for other nations, so it might help our trade deficit. Again this is no reason to panic? The U.S. dollar has been dominant for so long that we freak out when it takes a fall. This too shall pass. <<foreigners laying claim to real property on US soil>> What is the big deal? US citizens and companies have held real property in other nations for years. Other country's citizens and companies have owned property in the U.S. for years. I guess I don't see the problem. <<the end of manufacturing/exports as we once knew it and the rise of a domestic service economy>> Not necessarily a bad thing. Part of our decline in manufacturing is that no one wants to do that type of work anymore without being paid an exorbitant hourly rate. There is also the NIMBY factor... we may say we want U.S. manufacturing but no one wants heavy industry anywhere near where they live. Many service sector jobs pay quite nicely. They are not all cashiers at Wall-Mart. <<'Mom and Pop' have died while giving birth to super retailer chains who are stingy with employee benefits>> I can nail your butt to the wall on this one. ;-) Even the most tight-fisted retailer chain offers better benefits than the Mom and Pop's did. The Mom and Pop's had too few employees for benefits to be affordable. <<Corporate CEO salaries and options in the mega millions while the rank and file exist on a pauper wage>> This is true and it is absolutely disgusting and the government should do something about it. You can't keep companies from paying whatever salaries they want, but you COULD limit the amount of salary that can be recorded as a business expense. <<the obnoxiously high price of medicine/surgery/doctor visits>> We've driven up the cost of medicine by using the services excessively. I read a recent study where they compared the costs of treating a person in the last two years of their life at "high touch" (referring to the amount of referrals to specialists, tests run, days of hospitalization, etc) medical facilities and at "low touch" medical facilities. Medical care for people at the high touch places cost several times as much as at the low touch places. And here is the kicker -- survival was actually somewhat better at the low touch places... less of a chance for infections, pneumonia, and other illnesses prevalent in a hospital environment. <<The economic sky is falling fast here in the US and 3rd world status is fast approaching.>> Oh come now.
Originally Posted By barboy ///Americans are made of tougher stuff than they're given credit for these days./// No, (And I really appreciate your optimism, I do) but the 1940's and 50's mindset is over. We sue for the most trivial things and complain about standing in a 4 minute line at Starbucks. You know it wasn't that long ago that a bunch of mindless phonies or show offs ran to WalMart and bought up its stock of US flags and bumper stickers to show their US patriotism(not me--- I burned mine right in front of those fakes). These same posers in the US showed their 'toughness' by driving around with red/white/blue banners on their gas guzzling beasts, supersized couches on wheels SUV's. If we are truly tough then we would have put a stop to the sale and or importation of any passanger vehicle with lower than 20 mpgs(by executive order if need be) and start financing public trasportation instead of military profiteers, drug wars, the policeman ball and new stadiums. And I remember these same flag wavers (both dems and repubs, libs and conservs) backing our out of control pres. giving him carte blanche powers. The tough will do what it takes to survive and not bow to political pressure or group think. A tough person would have stood up and said no to Bush even if it meant political suicide in Congress or social suicide in one's own circle of friends and family. --- NikkyLOVESMickie has the toughnes. She has that drive and ambition and would roll up her sleaves but I'm afraid she is a minority--- We were tough back in the 40's when we came together---civilian and military personnel alike--- to mobilize against a very real and frightening foreingn threat. I'm afraid our 'American' DNA has changed.
