Originally Posted By bobbelee9 Why should they use birth control? The government (us taxpayers) subsidises the wellfare whores. A friend of mine has a relative who never married, but had 5 kids all by the same guy. Wellfare (us) paid for upkeep on every one of her kids. When the youngest turned 18, then the couple got married. They beat the system. It's the honest ones who suffer.
Originally Posted By Spirit of 74 <<It would be a cold day in hell before I lost my job and sat on my butt saying that my time was worth more than $7/hour, regardless of whether people were prejudiced against me because I have a college education. I'm not there to make friends, I'm there to make a living. I'm not going to throw myself a pity party because I don't have friends at work. If you let that get in the way of your making a living, then you need to grow up and refocus your priorities. >> I'm really trying to reign my spirit in here and be nice, but you don't make it easy, Nikki. If you want to go 'make a living on $7 an hour' more power to you ... you can help us become a third world nation of the mega-wealthy and service workers even faster. I've worked for less than that in my life, and I'll never do so again. My time ... my life is more valuable than that. I haven't worked my ass off to become a professional in my field ... working holidays, B-Days, important family days ... sometimes working stretches of a month with only 2-3 real days off ... to go work a brainless job that pays nothing (with people who would hate me andf be jealous) because hollier than thou folks think that you should do anything/everything so long as 'it's a job' missing the point as to whether it actually helps you advance yourself in life or even pays your bills. I am truly amazed at the 'tudes here ... it's like that clueless wonder Suzie Orman just dropped herself into the place. No wonder why we've become WalMarted as a nation ... because so many folks are so willing to get on the blame the individual bandwagon. There's no doubt people take advantage of welfare. There's no doubt that some places it's much worse than others and New Orleans has always had a rep as one of those places. But it astounds me how many folks are clueless enough to think anyone can get by on $7 an hr anywhere. And to defend that thinking is defending the indefensible. <<I think that Spirit's point is that that through hard work he was able to reach a certain standard of living, which is now under threat.>> That was my point, thanks. <<Which makes me even more angry. People who are hurting are people that can't put food on the table or pay their bills, not someone who can't afford to pay for a tee time at the country club.>> Can the 'tude. I've never had a membership at a country club in my life and if you have problem with those type of folks perhaps you should think about it when you go to vote because we've been led by those types for years. Of course, they've all 'earned' their status in life. You simply have no clue what you're talking about. You don't have to live in abject poverty to have difficulty paying bills or putting food on the table when expenses quadruple and companies are allowed/encouraged by government to put the screws to the 'little people.' Sometimes all it takes is illness or something unforseen to throw your life upside down. And guess what, Nikki. You don't have to drive a 98 Buick with 120,000 miles on it, shop at WalMart, overuse your credit or live in a hovel to be a 'little person' ... in this country there are plenty of successful middle class people who live in nice homes (yeah and drive nice autos) who literally could be homeless in months time. And, no, working at Home Depot or BK (or both ... again assuming they could get hired with all the teens and immigrants) won't save them. "I'm not a "let's bash the poor people" person." <<These kind of disclaimers are usually telling.>> Yes, they are. But now we don't just blame the welfare mothers (hey, if she was stupid enough to get knocked up five times we should write off her kids and make sure they grow up in a cycle of poverty, crime and violence... after all, we don't care about kids in this country once they're born, only when they're fetuses) we also now blame hard-working men and women who are either working class or middle class. They're all just living above their means. If they lose their $87,000 a year job with full benefits, then they should go work at Staples for $8 an hour for 20 hours a week because clearly that will allow them to stay in their home and pay their bills. Clueless. Some people are utterly clueless.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<They're all just living above their means. If they lose their $87,000 a year job with full benefits, then they should go work at Staples for $8 an hour for 20 hours a week because clearly that will allow them to stay in their home and pay their bills.>> No, it won't. But it will come closer than earning $0.00 per hour does. I would not take that job until my unemployment ran out, because unemployment would pay better. But once my unemployment ran out I would take what I could get until I could find something else. Twenty hours a week would be great because that would leave me with plenty of time to continue my search for a professional position. Although I certainly could not pay my bills with that kind of money, it would reduce the amount I would have to pull out of savings every month. If I can reduce what I have to pull out of savings by $500 per month, that is worth 80 hours of my time. I guess I'm not as good as you. I don't have an exciting job. I don't travel to great places. I don't meet famous people. I don't feel I'm too good for any type of honest work. Must be the Minnesotan in me. Unless you lived here, you probably wouldn't know. You don't have to be Suzie Orman to think like that. I never got the memo that said Democrats don't believe in personal responsibility. I think most of them do. I believe in helping those who need help, those who are unable to help themselves. I'm healthy. I'm not tied down with kids. I've got good work experience and marketable skills. I'm able to help myself. Why the heck should the taxpayers help pay my mortgage?? I just don't get it.
Originally Posted By RoadTrip ^^^ I don't know what any of the above has to do with my original post. This thread seems to have taken on a life of its own. That's fine. I figure it's an interesting enough debate. Count me in -- I'll play!
Originally Posted By vbdad55 <I am truly amazed at the 'tudes here ... it's like that clueless wonder Suzie Orman just dropped herself into the place< I thought I was the only one who thought she was a clueless windbag. ( and extremely condescending ) <My time ... my life is more valuable than that.< Here's where that can really come into play. I truly worked my way thru college ( unlike Mr'Obama's claims) - and I worked at $2/hr ( early 70's)- gas station type jobs -- I took one for $2.25 because I thought it was a big deal, but I had to work midnight shifts to get the extra .25. One week into the job I found myself with a shotgun held up against my temple as the station was robbed....I thought my life was over. I vowed I would work my arse off to the nth degree to never be in that type of position again. It's a tough old world out there - but news flash, it was 30-40 years ago too when one was poor - as I was.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey <<"I'm not a "let's bash the poor people" person." These kind of disclaimers are usually telling.>> dshyates, do you think I'm prejudiced against all poor people? If you have something to say to me, come out and say it. <<You have not offered solutions, just rebuffed alternative methods for change.>> I teach in an inner city school. I try and make change EVERY DAY when I walk into my classroom. Do you think I sit there and let the kids fail? I tell them how important good grades are and that they can be whatever they want to be. I tell them that as long as they pull a B average in high school (and they are below a certain income) they qualify for the TOPS program which pays their tuition to any LA state university they wish to attend. Whenever they ask why they need to know multiplication or how to write a complete sentence or any other skill, I relate it future occupations they may hold. I take my job VERY seriously - I do everything I can to show my students that they have more choices in life than those some of their parents have made. Please don't tell me that I don't offer solutions - I'm trying to point these children in the right direction in the first place. Please, tell me how continually offering government assistance to someone who has no intention of doing anything to change his/her behavior is a solution? Some people will ride the gravy train until you throw them off it - and some people need to be thrown off. I find it fundamentally unfair that some people need the government to establish a program to encourage them to work and stand on their own two feet when the vast majority of the population has come to that conclusion on their own. It's a complete waste of my tax dollars, especially when you can't drive a block in the New Orleans area without seeing at least two or three "now hiring" signs.
Originally Posted By NikkiLOVESMickey Spirit- To claim you're "hurting" because you can't maintain your standard of living is insulting to people who truly are having problems obtaining life's necessities like food, clothing and shelter. Frankly, it disgusts me. That's not hurting, that's being inconvenienced. Current gas and food increases have certainly put more of a dent in my income than yours, and I'm certainly not hurting. Things are tighter than they were, but I'm not going to say that I'm hurting. <<You simply have no clue what you're talking about. You don't have to live in abject poverty to have difficulty paying bills or putting food on the table when expenses quadruple and companies are allowed/encouraged by government to put the screws to the 'little people.' Sometimes all it takes is illness or something unforseen to throw your life upside down.>> Stop being condescending. Do you think I don't realize this? My brother in law was rushed to the hospital and spent a week in ICU because of an illness. He was already on disability, but he and my sister were making ends meet. They now have an ENORMOUS hospital bill to pay and things have gotten really tight. I am not so simple that I don't know how unexpected expenses can muck up someone's life. I did get one of those highfalutin' college educations like you, you know. <<They're all just living above their means. If they lose their $87,000 a year job with full benefits, then they should go work at Staples for $8 an hour for 20 hours a week because clearly that will allow them to stay in their home and pay their bills.>> I defer to RoadTrip's post 163 on this one, and I will also add this: regardless of my level of education, I could not sit on the couch and say that I was too good for any job if I had no income coming in. If I was jobless and the only job I could get was as a sanitation worker, I'd take it, as much as it would disgust me. As RoadTrip said, $7 an hour is much better than $0 an hour. You say I'm clueless, but I think your prideful. I couldn't sit on the couch and say I was too good for anything if I had no source of income. That $7 an hour might not allow me to keep my house, but at least it's better than nothing and it could lead to something better. No one can help you but yourself, and I have a low opinion of anyone who thinks they're too good for something when they have nothing. <<But now we don't just blame the welfare mothers (hey, if she was stupid enough to get knocked up five times we should write off her kids and make sure they grow up in a cycle of poverty, crime and violence... after all, we don't care about kids in this country once they're born, only when they're fetuses) we also now blame hard-working men and women who are either working class or middle class.>> I don't believe you should continue to aid the welfare mother, but I think you should take her kids away from her and put them up for adoption. I also think that if you continue to have children while on public assistance that you should have your tubes tied. If you don't want people to be personally responsible for themselves, then let the government take care of it. I will gladly give assistance to a working class or middle class person who has fallen on hard times due to the economy - as long as their trying to improve their situation and not sitting on a couch whining about how they're too good to get a job they feel is below them. You're too good to get a non-professional job; I'm too good to sit on my couch and whine - I'd rather do something, anything, to try and change my situation. <<Can the 'tude. I've never had a membership at a country club in my life and if you have problem with those type of folks perhaps you should think about it when you go to vote because we've been led by those types for years. Of course, they've all 'earned' their status in life.>> I don't have a problem with these folks, unless they're claiming that they're "hurting" because our tough economic times don't allow them to maintain a certain lifestyle. BTW, how do you think I would even know if you belong to a country club, Spirit? I barely know your name. It was a generalization.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>Please, tell me how continually offering government assistance to someone who has no intention of doing anything to change his/her behavior is a solution? Some people will ride the gravy train until you throw them off it - and some people need to be thrown off. I find it fundamentally unfair that some people need the government to establish a program to encourage them to work and stand on their own two feet when the vast majority of the population has come to that conclusion on their own. It's a complete waste of my tax dollars, especially when you can't drive a block in the New Orleans area without seeing at least two or three "now hiring" signs. <<< Nikki, stop thinking about the micro. you are making a difference, but you are one piece of the puzzle, as am I. You have never obviously lived in poverty. I have (we lost our home, and have many disability issues), and I have worked in this field for my entire working life. It is a step change, and that take a lot of effort. From working with personal aspirations, peer pressure, mentoring, changing the rules on financial assistance, put in case workers who reward people coming out of the poverty trap, looking at tax rates for incremental earnings, and explaining them in easy to understand terms that don't require a CPA to sort it out for you. I too get mad at paying 50% of my hard earned income (vowing I will never allow my family to be hungry again) for someone to sit on their butt. But there is a huge number of people that want to do it, but don't know where to start. Or they are worried that if they work, they won't be entitled to medicare to pay for certain treatments. There is also the peer pressure of those that aspire, being dragged back down by their friends and family, which means placing stringent rules on welfare is essential. you've worked in an inner city school for 1 year? Great, admirable. But it does not make you an expert in this area. Yes, you have some case studies to contribute. But I have worked on projects in Hong Kong, the State of Victoria in Australia, and all over the UK. These projects work (one of mine in London has reduced teenage pregnancy by 40%, another I am currently on is about rehab and back to work for disabled, mentally ill and addict citizens. And by golly, I am going to make this work too. Just like my project with central government on Social Work Practices (see previous thread). These kids in Care traditionally become the adults you are talking about. I am leading a whole system change programme to try to stop these cycles. The indicators in Denmark, Sweden, and NYC show that what we are doing should work. It's hard work, but I will succeed! The whole keep the government out ethos does not work. They are there to serve their people, not the other way around. Just throwing money at it does not work. But these sorts of projects do (Dr Edgar Cahn is awesome, I have worked with him and governements in HK, Australia, the US and Denmark to learn from this and do more). This is not the golden bullet, one project is not. But with 50 - 200 project programmes, we can change a generation, but it does take a generation to make that change, not a 4 year election cycle. <a href="http://www.timebanks.org/" target="_blank">http://www.timebanks.org/</a>
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>To claim you're "hurting" because you can't maintain your standard of living is insulting to people who truly are having problems obtaining life's necessities like food, clothing and shelter. Frankly, it disgusts me. That's not hurting, that's being inconvenienced. <<< Nikki, you truly are ignorant
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo It is not about absolutes. If you have dedicated your life getting your degrees, post grad professional qualifications, and then working all over giving up family and friend committments, to make your career and take care of your family, to then lose it all. Well are you going to be happy taking orders from some spotty kid, bringing home $7 an hour when you used to earn $82? I don't think so. I would emigrate. I agree about being prudent, but let's not be hasty here. If someone is a professional, they would probably be better off being entrepreneurial or contracting than working at Home Depot. That's if they got hired. Most retail managers I know would be frightened about losing their job to someone better skilled, educated and experienced. This really is delusional.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo >>>>I don't believe you should continue to aid the welfare mother, but I think you should take her kids away from her and put them up for adoption. I also think that if you continue to have children while on public assistance that you should have your tubes tied. If you don't want people to be personally responsible for themselves, then let the government take care of it.<<< Now I know you've lost it. Taking the kids away is not the answer (unless they are being abused). They love their parents. Their parents most likely love them. And putting kids in Care is more expensive than welfare to tax payers. Also, there are higher chances of them become a burden. And there is a short fall of decent foster parents and adoptive parents in the US. Also, about having their tubes tied, what about liberty? Where is the line? If that is not state intervention, I do not know what is. Nikki, you honestly scare me.
Originally Posted By dshyates "dshyates, do you think I'm prejudiced against all poor people? If you have something to say to me, come out and say it." No, I don't think you are prejudiced against all poor people. You have expressed compassion for those that ended up in Dire Straits due to no fault of their own. But show little compassion for those that got where thy are at by making bad decisions or were dumb enough to be duped by "reputable" banks like Well Fargo. There are many folks homeless now because they weren't savvy enough to understand that the banking industry had been opened up to ciminals that were preying on the lower and lower middle class. I am in the worst situation of my life. And was because of a misguided trust, bad decision making, and bad luck. It all started when the company I worked for closed without warning (bad luck). I was misguided into a mortgage that left no room for misfortune (I was dumb and gullible), but had I not lost my job eveything would have been OK. I found another job, but was making $10K/year less. And the downward spiril started. We lost the house. I then lost my wife, the kids, the dogs, and then another job. For the past 4 years, until Feb., I was a full-time professional Photojournalist for CBS making 20K/year. I took the low pay to stay near my kids (7,12) Fortunately, I have caring parents. I live in their garage on top of a mountain in WV. I have resumes out from Cleveland to Miami. Also fortunately I got a call from the ABC affiliate in Richmond, VA yesterday, and I have an interview tomorrow at 10AM. If I get the job, that means I will get about a $15K/year raise over what I was making, but I will have to move away from my kids. But as you say, you do what you gotta do. I am not happy about moving away from my children. It doesn't help that my ex remarried a man who lives in the coal fields 50 miles from the closest McDonalds. It is hard for a video professional to make a living where there are no TV stations. The bright spot is if I get the job with the mouse (ABC) media passes to WDW will be easily obtainable. And as far as the welfare issue, I think you have a bitter issue with them. You work hard. I get that. Thank you parents who instilled a sense of responsibility. You have been guided from birth to be a model citizen. Parents can only teach what they know. If your parents were welfare class, chances are you will be too. Who's fault is that? I agree that the way we do it now only perpetuates the problem. What I don't understand is why the gov't pays people to actually do work and pays people to not work. Instead of paying them to sit home, why not make them gov't employees. Give them a low end career. That might raise self respect, and possibly break the cycle. I understand the anger. When I go to the grocery store adding diligently because of limited cash, and see the 350lb lady with her 3 300lb jids and a cart full of potato chips and cho. ice cream then pay with food stamps is irritating to say the least. But if you look closely you can see what is happening. Mindboggling ignorance. As I said parents can only teach what they know. Obviously Mom doesn't know how to eat healthy. So chances are her kids won't either. She has probably never worked a day in her life. But I don't think she is "working the system". She honestly doesn't know better. No, Nikki, I don't think you are a prejudiced person. But i also don't think you are seeing the big picture. Sure some people are going to work the system, but for the most part, at least here in WV, the welfare class aren't bad people. They just need guidance and oppertunity more than food stamps.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo dshyates, the very best of luck in your interview! I will be mustering all the positive thoughts I can for you!
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <,Most retail managers I know would be frightened about losing their job to someone better skilled, educated and experienced.>> I don't know where you live... Oh, I guess I do -- Great Britain. But where I live retail managers are more than happy to take anyone who can read, write, and dress decently. Especially if you are willing to work part time.
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo Oh, and here is some media coverage on one of my other projects. I am guessing Nikki will not like it: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/jul/02/longtermcare.socialcare2" target="_blank">http://www.guardian.co.uk/soci...ialcare2</a>
Originally Posted By davewasbaloo That is sad, given over here, the standard of retail staff are quite high (though customer service can sometimes be questionable).
Originally Posted By RoadTrip <<That is sad, given over here, the standard of retail staff are quite high (though customer service can sometimes be questionable).>> Retailers here have a very difficult time filling their positions. That is why I always say that if a person in the U.S. wants to work they can work. A person can head for the local mall, fill out applications, be interviewed, and be offered at least one job inside of a week. Want to talk about disadvantaged people? I think Somali refugees in this country would fit that definition pretty well. Minnesota has one of the largest concentrations of Somali people in the country (35% of all U.S. Somali immigrants). They think the employment situation here is GREAT. <<Employment Opportunities: Minnesota’s consistently low unemployment rate has provided diverse employment opportunities for refugee and immigrant groups with limited English skills. The availability of “well paying jobs†was one of the reasons Somalis came to Minnesota. Many liked the availability of business opportunities in the Twin Cities. As one participant stated, “Somalis like independent work.†It was not uncommon to hear participants refer to the “immense opportunities†available to them in the Twin Cities. “This state has more opportunities than any other for the Somali people,†commented one participant. The freedom to wear their traditional clothes to work was also something Somalis like about living in Minnesota. Several of the women specifically noted that in Minnesota they are not hassled about wearing their hijab at work.>> Source: <a href="http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/refugee/hcp/somalifg.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.health.state.mn.us/...lifg.pdf</a> If they can find work, ANYONE can find work.
Originally Posted By fkurucz <<But where I live retail managers are more than happy to take anyone who can read, write, and dress decently. Especially if you are willing to work part time.>> In my experience managers, regardless of industry, are often threatened by direct reports who are substantially more qualified than they are themselves.
Originally Posted By fkurucz >>Retailers here have a very difficult time filling their positions.<< Maybe in your neck of the woods. Out here no one is hiring.
